Value and Women

[SageModeAustin]

@Serotoninluv Agreed. Turns out she has a channel based on all this stuff, so it came to no surprise after reading her comments. By the way, what kind of professor are you? I want to become a psychology professor, so i think it's pretty interesting seeing a potential-future-version-of-me on here. 

On 9/1/2018 at 6:48 PM, SageModeAustin said:

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[SageModeAustin]

@Etherial Cat I have a hard time not judging people, so this was really helpful actually.

On 9/1/2018 at 6:48 PM, SageModeAustin said:

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[Thanatos13]

On 9/2/2018 at 5:11 PM, Serotoninluv said:

Whoa. I’m a college professor and this is way off base. Most professors have spent tens of thousands of hours studying, discussing and researching their field. Do they have more to learn? Yes. Can they expand their consciousness to develop complex system modes of thinking? Yes. . . Yet, the idea that students and professors are on the same level and the only difference is a few letters is incredibly naive and ignorant. One of the most challenging aspects of teaching for a professor is meeting a student at their lower level of thinking and knowledge. Go spend 40,000 hours of intense study and research into any topic and see for yourself how your perspective changes.

Regarding debates: I’ve found open-minded discussions are MUCH better for learning than debates. Debates tend to get ideological, defensive and contracted. I’ve found that students who want to debate are generally locked into either / or thinking (stage blue) and are unable to see more complex, nuanced modes of thinking such as rational thinking with shades of grey (orange level) or relative modes of thinking (green and yellow levels). As well, students motivated to debate with professors often lack awareness of how little they know.

Blue/orange-level debates are like drinking gutter water compared to the juice at yellow-level discussions. Seriously, you have no idea what you are missing.

I don’t think you are correct in that regard. I have met professors whom I have “schooled” despite their years of experience. Though you using  a phrase like “expand consciousness” makes me doubt your words. You clearly have the wrong idea about professors, especially since you are one. 

You are also mistaken about debate as it’s only during that where I find ideas actually tested and questioned. Unfortunately people tend to do it wrong these days where it’s more about being right than looking at both points. You can’t really classify thinking by “stages” either especially since the guy who came up with “spiral dynamics” seems like he just arbitrarily assigned such qualities to the colors. It sounds like nonsense to me. 

The problem with “yellow” thinking is that humans have a knack for seeing patterns and connections where none exist. That fact that you are dividing thinking into such categories seems to show something (but not positively). The problem with “open-minded” discussions is that they never end up getting anywhere and people just leave believing what they want since to challenge what they say would be having a closed mind.

[Thanatos13]

On 9/2/2018 at 5:40 PM, Shadowraix said:

The value of food is not objective. That is very surface level. For value you have to set some sort of goals which can be very relative to arbitrary. 

The value of food being higher is a matter of valuing biological needs and survival as higher. Valuing the remedy of the sensations that come with the lack of those things as higher.

It is objective in the sense that it’s wires into the biology of living creatures, hence outside their control. In that sense it’s an objective value in that you don’t have a say in it. As a suicide victim how hard it is to overcome the survival drive. 

Ultimately though we are subjective creatures that live by subjective values. There isn’t a way around that.

[Emerald]

@Serotoninluv @SageModeAustin @Etherial Cat Thank you all for the kind words!  

[Forestluv]

5 minutes ago, Thanatos13 said:

I don’t think you are correct in that regard. I have met professors whom I have “schooled” despite their years of experience. Though you using  a phrase like “expand consciousness” makes me doubt your words. You clearly have the wrong idea about professors, especially since you are one. 

You are also mistaken about debate as it’s only during that where I find ideas actually tested and questioned. Unfortunately people tend to do it wrong these days where it’s more about being right than looking at both points. You can’t really classify thinking by “stages” either especially since the guy who came up with “spiral dynamics” seems like he just arbitrarily assigned such qualities to the colors. It sounds like nonsense to me. 

The problem with “yellow” thinking is that humans have a knack for seeing patterns and connections where none exist. That fact that you are dividing thinking into such categories seems to show something (but not positively). The problem with “open-minded” discussions is that they never end up getting anywhere and people just leave believing what they want since to challenge what they say would be having a closed mind.

From my point of view, you are attached to a limited perspective. I encourage you to keep exploring with an open mind. For me, admitting I knew very little and genuinely trying to understand other perspectives was the key to expanding my mind.

[Thanatos13]

On 9/2/2018 at 0:00 AM, Capital said:

No ! Objectively and universally human food are not more valuable than a non human food, for example why would meat be more valuable than a chair to a mountain or to a vegan animal for example , they both equally meaningless or equally meaningful , so to the absolute perspective everything is equally valuable , but biology filters that valuable equality to benefit its survival agenda , which I have nothing against actually ! 

There is no Absolute perspective. You speak of biology and surivival as though such things are entities with a goal (as in a mind). They aren’t. You also cannot say that biology isn’t part of this “absolute”. Humans have little control over it. Biology can be absolute and by extension survival. After all it’s not like life needs to exist, but it does so without regard to reason or logic. That sounds pretty absolute to me.

even morality can be so, for it is ultimately rooted in survival and is visceral. The reasoning and justification is just window dressing. 

But to cap it off, I cannot trust the word of a creature that lives it’s life subjectively to speak of “absolute” or objectivity. By default our brains construct reality based on our senses. At best we can hope for approximate knowledge, which is similar to Pyrrho’s argument, albeit modified.

[Thanatos13]

6 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

From my point of view, you are attached to a limited perspective. I encourage you to keep exploring with an open mind. For me, admitting I knew very little and genuinely trying to understand other perspectives was the key to expanding my mind.

You don’t really expand your mind, it’s more like you cycle through things. 

If people can back up their claims then I will consider them, but even then they might not be right. I can understand a perspective and still think they are wrong. It’s called imagination. But what I do know is that you cannot be 100% about anything, no matter how hard you try. Certainty is a myth. That the best you can hope for is good enough. 

[Forestluv]

20 minutes ago, Thanatos13 said:

If people can back up their claims then I will consider them, but even then they might not be right. I can understand a perspective and still think they are wrong. It’s called imagination. But what I do know is that you cannot be 100% about anything, no matter how hard you try. Certainty is a myth. That the best you can hope for is good enough. 

One of the hallmarks of a contracted mind is attachment to being "right" or "wrong". Another feature is defending a perspective as being "right".

Please realize there are much more sophisticated views than the one you currently hold. Your view seems to be primarily based on a simple binary mode of thinking with an elementary understanding of spectrums - and lacking higher order relative perspectives. You just can't see it right now. On the spiral, you are transitioning from blue to orange. The reason the spiral looks like "nonsense" to you is that you are unable to comprehend the higher stages. If you want to evolve beyond what you can currently imagine. . . open your mind. 

[Thanatos13]

49 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

One of the hallmarks of a contracted mind is attachment to being "right" or "wrong". Another feature is defending a perspective as being "right".

Please realize there are much more sophisticated views than the one you currently hold. Your view seems to be primarily based on a simple binary mode of thinking with an elementary understanding of spectrums - and lacking higher order relative perspectives. You just can't see it right now. On the spiral, you are transitioning from blue to orange. The reason the spiral looks like "nonsense" to you is that you are unable to comprehend the higher stages. If you want to evolve beyond what you can currently imagine. . . open your mind. 

To be honest that just sounds like ego stroking to me. 

People say “open your mind” but only when it comes to what they preach.

Defending a position as right is what everyone does, even you as shown in this thread. Every idea and philosophy is the same. By that definition you have a contracted mind. 

There isn’t such a thing as higher order thinking, that just sounds like more ego stroking. If all you are going to do is be vague and attempt to call it thinking then we are done here. 

Having an open mind means being open to being wrong and also willing to accept when the evidence is against you. You seem to imply it more as belief, which is the opposite. Having seen Leo’s videos,, there isn’t anything that leads me to think it’s eye opening. It’s misrepresented or leaves things out, or applies it one way. 

Like I will say, spiral dynamics isn’t anything that actually exists in world and it’s not a model that really applies to reality. 

It seems your view of an open mind is one that doesn’t value truth. 

[XYZ]

Ideally we would view everyone the same, as human beings who have a subjective experience just like our own and whom are intrinsically valuable. This is a virtue I might assume comes to only the most truly enlightened though, for we all have our biases. We can't even delineate where a person's body ands and their personality begins, physical factors will inevitably color the way we perceive others no matter how hard we try not to. I myself tend to be more receptive toward women I find attractive, not because I'm trying to get anything from them, but because I'm so uncomfortable around or indifferent to people in general. So someone who is easy on the eyes, sensually pleasurable to look at and listen to determines how satisfying the interaction is, and before I can evolve I have to recognize that yes indeed, I really am this shallow. Case in point, I ignore all solicitors at the mall asking for non-profit donations, but when it's a pretty girl I let her give me the pitch and enjoy letting her waste her time before I walk away not giving any money.

But still, I have enough self-awareness to recognize that any measure of value a person has, or the way they see themselves has nothing to do with how comfortable I am around them, or or useful they are to me personally. Value is arbitrary and subjective anyway, and how developed societies work ideally is recognizing that no one is any less valuable than anyone else. Learning to see everyone as intrinsically valuable probably wouldn't remove my biases, or make me any more sociable.

 

 

[Forestluv]

2 hours ago, Thanatos13 said:

To be honest that just sounds like ego stroking to me. 

People say “open your mind” but only when it comes to what they preach.

Defending a position as right is what everyone does, even you as shown in this thread. Every idea and philosophy is the same. By that definition you have a contracted mind. 

There isn’t such a thing as higher order thinking, that just sounds like more ego stroking. If all you are going to do is be vague and attempt to call it thinking then we are done here. 

Having an open mind means being open to being wrong and also willing to accept when the evidence is against you. You seem to imply it more as belief, which is the opposite. Having seen Leo’s videos,, there isn’t anything that leads me to think it’s eye opening. It’s misrepresented or leaves things out, or applies it one way. 

Like I will say, spiral dynamics isn’t anything that actually exists in world and it’s not a model that really applies to reality. 

It seems your view of an open mind is one that doesn’t value truth. 

Of course it does. You have a very limited scope of awareness. Anything outside your limited scope will seem odd, irrational, "whoo whoo", nonsense, over-complicated, egocentric etc. Argue for a contracted mind and it is yours. 

Identification with contracted thinking is like drinking gutter water. You now have an invitation to become aware of, and let go of, your attachments and drink juice more delicious than you can imagine. But hey, if you like drinking gutter water, have at it.

[Solace]

This is a simple issue. You are seeing through the eyes of your false sense of self, your ego which makes you value one thing over another. The soul loves whatever arises unconditionally because he/she is aware in every moment that there is only love, and what appears to be separate is connoted by one love, and made out of love, and guided by love in a infinite matrix of superimposing realties of love in this one timeless moment called the present.

[Thanatos13]

10 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Of course it does. You have a very limited scope of awareness. Anything outside your limited scope will seem odd, irrational, "whoo whoo", nonsense, over-complicated, egocentric etc. Argue for a contracted mind and it is yours. 

Identification with contracted thinking is like drinking gutter water. You now have an invitation to become aware of, and let go of, your attachments and drink juice more delicious than you can imagine. But hey, if you like drinking gutter water, have at it.

That’s actually the opposite of a contracted mind. What you just described is gullible trying to masquerade as open minded. It’s literally the same tactic used by anyone who has to do the work of truth, they sling open minded when really they just want you to believe. 

You are selling “gutter water” claiming to be juice, it’s not unlike the snake oil salesmen. 

Like I said, you don’t want truth you just want support for what you believe. I have heard your speech hundreds of times. Not to mention the people behind “spiral dynamics” say that it’s not a ladder. There is no higher evolution and one level isn’t better than another. Doesn’t mean I buy it, but you make it seem like an excuse to ego stroke (like now). 

I don’t believe things without people backing it up. Otherwise you are just another religion. 

Youre not open minded, just afraid. 

[Forestluv]

1 minute ago, Thanatos13 said:

That’s actually the opposite of a contracted mind. What you just described is gullible trying to masquerade as open minded. It’s literally the same tactic used by anyone who has to do the work of truth, they sling open minded when really they just want you to believe. 

You are selling “gutter water” claiming to be juice, it’s not unlike the snake oil salesmen. 

Like I said, you don’t want truth you just want support for what you believe. I have heard your speech hundreds of times. Not to mention the people behind “spiral dynamics” say that it’s not a ladder. There is no higher evolution and one level isn’t better than another. Doesn’t mean I buy it, but you make it seem like an excuse to ego stroke (like now). 

I don’t believe things without people backing it up. Otherwise you are just another religion. 

Youre not open minded, just afraid. 

I've been there, my friend. I really have. You have no idea what you are missing.

[Thanatos13]

14 minutes ago, Solace said:

This is a simple issue. You are seeing through the eyes of your false sense of self, your ego which makes you value one thing over another. The soul loves whatever arises unconditionally because he/she is aware in every moment that there is only love, and what appears to be separate is connoted by one love, and made out of love, and guided by love in a infinite matrix of superimposing realties of love in this one timeless moment called the present.

Sorry but that’s a no. I have read a few spiritual types that say love is ego. That the truth isn’t love and that love must be transcended to see the truth. 

[Thanatos13]

16 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I've been there, my friend. I really have. You have no idea what you are missing.

I actually “do”, because I used to be that way. There is a reason I left mysticism, shamanism, etc. It didn’t answer questions and it blames the person when they fail. 

I don’t miss what was never there. Like i said, you don’t want truth just dreams. I feel for your students.

like I said, I’ve heard your speech before. In the end it’s just air  

[Forestluv]

@Thanatos13 We create our own traps. Many people on the board have solved a similar trap to the one you are in now, yet only you can solve the trap you created. The good news is you left yourself a way out. Get through it and move on. . . 

[Solace]

@Thanatos13 That is just sounds you are repeating to me, ideas that you have accepted from other peoples minds. Experience your love for life through direct experience, and tell me then what you learn, see and feel about yourself. Tell me if love is not what you are looking for after you have felt it radiating brightly from your heart centre. Use your God given free will to test if the teachers you speak of are right, that is a wise way to approach all of life I feel.

Namaste.

 

 

[Thanatos13]

34 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Thanatos13 We create our own traps. Many people on the board have solved a similar trap to the one you are in now, yet only you can solve the trap you created. The good news is you left yourself a way out. Get through it and move on. . . 

The trap I see is this site. It appears to be insightful if you don’t look too hard at it. Like I said, I used to be like these people. I got out. But it seems you are mired in it and I can see why. It’s certainly appealing.

One thing you learn is that no matter what the idea is or what you preach, there is always an audience to confirm your beliefs. That seems to be your case. Everyone stops questioning when they reach a comfortable place.

32 minutes ago, Solace said:

@Thanatos13 That is just sounds you are repeating to me, ideas that you have accepted from other peoples minds. Experience your love for life through direct experience, and tell me then what you learn, see and feel about yourself. Tell me if love is not what you are looking for after you have felt it radiating brightly from your heart centre. Use your God given free will to test if the teachers you speak of are right, that is a wise way to approach all of life I feel.

Namaste.

 

 

Thats not truth that is dreaming, kind of like what they say. My tests confirm their findings. Underneath it all is something so gripping there aren’t words. Because there is no love, no compassion, it’s nothing people can handle for very long. Love is the trap, it is the defense to protect us from what it hides. You seem unable to let go and want dream longer, which is fine.