I can't see how full enlightenment not implies physical death as well

[MarkusSweden]

When I read threads here I see a few members that are truly great, they seem to know everything and have an aura of enlightenment about them. 

However, it still feels like they are refusing to make the very last step to finally become fully enlightened, like they hold something back. 

Like they are 99% enlightened and not aim any higher that that. 

At very rare occasions though, I see members who are all in so to speak, 100% , I often notice when facing those posts already after reading the first sentence. I can't nail what's special about them, they just are.

They just feel so incredible transparent, honest and full of integrity. I feel their words digs in to my body and deliver silence and truth. What I notice about these posters is that they are not interesting in socialising or sharing ideas back and forth, they often just post one single post and that's it, then they are gone for good.

In a way, all of those "One post wonder"- members had a dark picture of life. But it didn't felt dark at all reading them, rather it felt liberating to read them.

A few of them decided to commit suicide, others have chosen to stay but they know there is nothing to gain in doing so. They just let the lucid dream continue, but for no reason really.

The reason why I don't feel sad reading those dark posts is because I recognise how they desire REAL enlightenment in a way. And if you want REAL enlightenment, you can't really desire any aspect of worldly life, not even "enlightenment" within a body mind, and that explain the dark nature of their posts(which paradoxically aren't dark at all).

They were not satisfied to reach a point were they saw through duality. They wanted more(same as less), they were not satisfied with a lucid dream within an agent lost in maya, they wanted FULL awakening. 

And think about it, first you don't recognise reality as a dream, you believe it is real, then you recognise it's nothing but a dream(maya). You're having a lucid dream by now, but that's not really to be fully awake.

If you have a dream at night, and start realising you're in the middle of a dream, you might find it fascinating to be in a lucid dream for a while, but after that initial bliss and freedom of realising you're in a lucid dream, don't you want to quit the game all together, folding up to ten and become fully awake? 

I can't see how you can stay within a body mind and be fully enlightened, even if you don't identify at all with the body mind that carries you around. Can you?

Also, at my most blissful in moments in life, when I really enjoy life the most, thoughts like "Nothing could be better then to be physical dead" have come to my mind.

Those thoughts only come when I really experience great happiness in life, I think that is because the supreme creator know that I can handle the truth at that time. Those kind of thoughts never come me, when life isn't that good, then I think of a new car, a new carrier, a new girlfriend or anything other superficial.  

Elaborate.  

Edited September 1, 2018 by MarkusSweden

[RabbitHole]

There is nothing to argue or discuss so I will just agree. Full enlightment is ego transcendence which means transcending your human form, no one really says that It literary means psychical death of body but that's what It is. Otherwise It's just human being who had enlightening experiences/es and their ego has adapted/been shaped according to those experiences or even simply information It soaked up about enlightement, spirituality. Ego is mind and what mind is, is basically biological computer that explains reality to Itself trough communication with senses, meaning your reality is built on what mind has been exposed to. People (hope this is not trigger word ) forget about your ego battles and enlightement, searching for enlightment is another ego's identification. Shape your ego in the way that's the most beneficial for you and have fun with your given human character. Someone said this on forum, forgot who, but life is a game. While some of you are standing on tutorial level and questioning the point of game, graphics etc. I am playing It and getting the most out of this wonderful human experience. Go travel, meet people, do all the hobbies that your human mind thinks is fun, sure keeping in mind that you're always in loving state as you wan't others to have as wonderful experience as you. We are infinite, don't worry, you have plenty of time to become enlightened. 

I know there will be people thinking: "This guy has no idea what he's talking about, he's stage (whatever color)". But what actually happens is your mind can't proccess information of my text as It conflicts with information It's already using about this topic and which has been agreed to make sense.

Have a  great day!

*Edit   Just wanted to add, If you wan't to get approximate idea of what ego actually is, then take high dose of psychdelics, It's not safe at all, but then you will know what your ego actually consists of and whether you wan't to keep It or not.

Edited September 1, 2018 by RabbitHole

[Preetom]

@MarkusSweden In the movie Matrix, we see that Neo wakes up from one reality to a higher reality. When you wake up from dream, you break out from one reality to a seemingly higher level reality.

But the thing with final Enlightenment is, there is nothing outside waiting. Haven't this come across your mind yet? 

Everything is happening in Consciousness and the sole substance of it all is nothing but pure consciousness. Once you see clearly, once you only know Consciousness aka become permanently Enlightened, where can you go from there? There is no outside dream or a bubble waiting to receive you. For the self realized being, there is literally no distinction between waking, dreaming and sleeping. All he knows is the Self and knowing the Self is all there is.

Quoting from Ashtavakra Gita, ''The realized being wishes for neither living nor dying''

[Shadowraix]

Correct, full enlightenment would imply drawing back into the all mind and knowing what the all mind knows. This would require us to be beyond our corporeal form. We may have figured out aspect about the nature of everything, but that doesn't mean we will have access to everything the all mind does. Fitting infinite into finite doesn't work.

We are basically forced to experience the various depths of the all mind though until the mind decides its time to draw us back in. This mind is our home

 

Edited September 1, 2018 by Shadowraix

[MarkusSweden]

28 minutes ago, Preetom said:

@MarkusSweden In the movie Matrix, we see that Neo wakes up from one reality to a higher reality. When you wake up from dream, you break out from one reality to a seemingly higher level reality.

But the thing with final Enlightenment is, there is nothing outside waiting. Haven't this come across your mind yet? 

Everything is happening in Consciousness and the sole substance of it all is nothing but pure consciousness. Once you see clearly, once you only know Consciousness aka become permanently Enlightened, where can you go from there? There is no outside dream or a bubble waiting to receive you. For the self realized being, there is literally no distinction between waking, dreaming and sleeping. All he knows is the Self and knowing the Self is all there is.

Quoting from Ashtavakra Gita, ''The realized being wishes for neither living nor dying''

I really love that last quote! Tnx  

Quote

But the thing with final Enlightenment is, there is nothing outside waiting. Haven't this come across your mind yet? 

Can it be that we have the same understanding, just different perspectives? I don't mean that there is anything outside waiting, I don't see how that really contradict my OP? (Even though it may do so from a rational/logical perspective)

Quote

 

@MarkusSweden In the movie Matrix, we see that Neo wakes up from one reality to a higher reality. When you wake up from dream, you break out from one reality to a seemingly higher level reality.

But the thing with final Enlightenment is, there is nothing outside waiting. Haven't this come across your mind yet? 

 

Imagine if there was a higher levels, in the end you want to break free of next level also, to experience yet another higher level, and on and on it goes. Finally you want to enter that "no-level" realm that doesn't actually exist, but somehow you can enter it, I guess you call it death and I call it ultimate freedom.  

Edited September 1, 2018 by MarkusSweden

[Preetom]

33 minutes ago, MarkusSweden said:

Imagine if there was a higher levels, in the end you want to break free of next level also, to experience yet another higher level, and on and on it goes. Finally you want to enter that "no-level" realm that doesn't actually exist, but somehow you can enter it, I guess you call it death and I call it ultimate freedom.  

Take a realized being. You and I are seeing him to inhabit a body. But in his direct experience, he finds absolutely no distinction between having a body or not. In fact, to him there is no notion of having a body. Would that man ever have a desire to leave the body? Would that man be able to distinguish between life and death?

[Saumaya]

If actor dies in a movie, it's physical death. If the actor realises it's just an actor. It's enlightenment.

[Prabhaker]

2 hours ago, MarkusSweden said:

I can't see how you can stay within a body mind and be fully enlightened, even if you don't identify at all with the body mind that carries you around. Can you?

Mansur al-Hallaj was accused for blasphemy in Baghdad (he was originally an Iranian poet). He was a Sufi and he started advertising his beliefs and gained followers, some believe that he was acting enigmatic (or maybe magic) in order to get followers.

Later Caliphate in Baghdad ordered to cut his head off but till the last moments of his life he continued saying Ana al-Haqq" (I am the Truth).

Now some people believe that he was just an apostate, some believe he was a magician, but many Iranian poets call him a martyr and know him as one of the greatest Iranian Sufis.

The Caliphate of Baghdad construed the meaning of “I am the truth” as “I am the God” and that’s why they accused him of being apostate and also more important than this, the Caliphate was afraid of his open mind and tact speeches which caused to have many followers among people.

Now here is the story of his death according to Attar of Nishapur:

They cut his hands, he laughed, they asked him why are you laughing?

He replied: it’s easy to cut the hands of a prisoner, if you are a real man cut my hands of reaching higher (spiritually higher, God or something like that).

They cut his feet, he laughed and said : I walk on earth with this feet, if you can, cut my feet by which I travel beyond this earth.

Then he daub his face with his blood, they asked why are you doing this? he replied: I’m bleeding and my face is pale, I don’t want you to think that my paleness is because I’m afraid.

Then they cut out his eyes, his tongue, nose, and before cutting his head he smiled and died finally.

 

 

[Prabhaker]

2 hours ago, MarkusSweden said:

I can't see how you can stay within a body mind and be fully enlightened, even if you don't identify at all with the body mind that carries you around. Can you?

When Socrates was poisoned, he said to his disciples, 'Wait. The poison is being given to me. Now I will tell you what is happening to me inside, so you can become aware of something that you cannot see.' And then he said, 'Up to my knees, my legs are dead. But as far as I am concerned, I am intact and as whole as I was before.' Then he said, 'My whole legs have gone dead -- below the waist I cannot feel anything.' He asked a disciple to touch his feet, to pinch them, but he could not feel anything. He said, 'I cannot feel them, so half of my body is dead, but I am as whole as ever. My inner feeling is not that I am half-dead and half-alive, I am as alive as ever! Half of the body is gone, but my being is untouched by it.'

And slowly slowly his hands became dead, and his chest started sinking. And then he said the last words. He said, 'My tongue will not be able to say any more words. It is getting numb. But the last thing that I want to tell you is this: that although almost ninety percent of my body is dead, I am a hundred percent alive. If it is an indication of something, it shows that even when the body is one hundred percent dead, I will be alive, because I have seen ninety percent of my body go, but I am as whole as before. So ten percent more will go... You cannot see what is happening to me inside, but I can see it.'

[MarkusSweden]

@Prabhaker Interesting anecdotes both of them, thank you Prabhy!

[Jack River]

@MarkusSweden

One thing noticed from 37 years of not living, psychological time is not understood. We seem to try and become something and we are not aware of it. There is no attention to this inner movement of fear. We gather all kinds of information not seeing that it strengthens fear and holds us back. There is no attention to what prevents freedom. 

Edited September 1, 2018 by Jack River

[pluto]

It does, it shows you death is an illusion.

[MarkusSweden]

22 hours ago, Jack River said:

@MarkusSweden

One thing noticed from 37 years of not living, psychological time is not understood. We seem to try and become something and we are not aware of it. There is no attention to this inner movement of fear. We gather all kinds of information not seeing that it strengthens fear and holds us back. There is no attention to what prevents freedom. 

What do you mean by not living for 37 years? You have been enlightened for that long? 

[Nahm]

@MarkusSweden Just because you’ve assumed there is a thing called “physical”, doesn’t mean there is. 

[Jack River]

12 hours ago, MarkusSweden said:

What do you mean by not living for 37 years? 

I mean I have been a dead for 37 years. 

12 hours ago, MarkusSweden said:

You have been enlightened for that long? 

I don’t really know what is meant by enlightenment. Seems weird to say I have become an idea. I can say there is no more feeding fear. 

Edited September 3, 2018 by Jack River

[ajasatya]

@MarkusSweden enlightenment is realizing and living the true nature of Reality, which is conscious, breathing and typing right now.

it's not like Truth became, becomes or will become falsity someday. Truth is eternal whether it's realized or not. there's no fundamental change required such as "physical death".

suicide is denial, opposed to living gracefully a.k.a. full acceptance.

[MarkusSweden]

7 minutes ago, Jack River said:

I mean I have been a dead for 37 years. 

 

Very interesting!

May I ask you how you handle relationships, because to me that holds me back from being dead. They refer to me as a person, as Markus. Although they love me very much I have no desire to keep them in my live, although I love them as well of course, but they hinder me from being fully in the 'NOW', they hinder me to be dead. I can't explain that to them, they won't understand. To them it's natural to build and strengthen the persona and the carrier, the material, economical status and safety. 

I have to be "my" persona in order to relate to them, I can't relate as dead. Or rather I could if they don't view me as someone they know, some persona that I didn't identify myself with. That way I find it easy to deal with people who don't know 'me' because then I can be dead. 

You see what I'm saying. I had this HUGE HUGE intuition to 'disappear' from all people I know, family and such. I didn't even wanted to write a letter and explain why I choose to disappear, because even that letter would be written be the persona. The only true and honest thing I could do was to disappear without a trace. But I know how much suffering that would bring to my relatives, my mother especially. So I couldn't pulled it of because of empathy towards them. 

Now 3-4 years later I still feel the same pull to leave it all behind. This is a trap, because leaving would give my huge bad conscience and family and friends will suffer not knowing what has happened to me. 

Are you familiar with this, I just long so badly to be the dead one I know I can be. In fact I've been dead for a many years prior wanted to leave my relatives behind, I just couldn't understand why I was suffering when meeting them back then, now I know it was because of the suffering thing of being a person when intreating with them. When meeting strangers I just respond whatever I like not thinking about who I am or what others think I am. Because in every relationship we project upon each other an idea who the other is. 

Do you understand anything of this, or do you see it as nonsense? Did you face this problems in your first years as dead? 

[Jack River]

14 minutes ago, MarkusSweden said:

May I ask you how you handle relationships, because to me that holds me back from being dead.

You want to be dead?

14 minutes ago, MarkusSweden said:

have to be "my" persona in order to relate to them, I can't relate as dead.

I think get it dude..they have an idea of what you are and that idea is bs. It brothers you. I don’t know if you notice this but persons hold ideas about you out of fear. And I doubt persons really love always having to control how they see someone else to feel more secure. It seems to be how the self works man. It is built to be defensive. I do understand what you are saying. We all should. I have this same thing with my parents. I talked about deep with facless. It is two images fighting with eachother. Two illusions looking to each other to make each other happy or satisfied. 

What i mean by I was dead for 37 years was I was caught in this conditioned relationship my entire life. This is what I consider being dead. Always being caught in the past. Do you get what I mean by that? 

Edited September 2, 2018 by Jack River

[Jack River]

22 minutes ago, MarkusSweden said:

Because in every relationship we project upon each other an idea who the other is. 

This is action of the dead. The dead being the old or past. 

So when we project this deadness really that means we are the living dead. To me living means no fear. No fear, no projection. Kinda goes with Buddha and his life is change quote. But fear resist change. Then we project. 

Edited September 2, 2018 by Jack River

[cetus]

11 minutes ago, Jack River said:

You want to be dead?

@Jack River  That's a line from a movie. This guy gets arrested and thrown in prison. He's put in a cell and the door slams shut. Than he says to himself outloud "God I wish I were dead". Another inmate comes out of a shadow from behind him and asks "you want to be dead?".