The phenomenon of fragmentation

[now is forever]

@Faceless what about observing our selfs-self in the relationship of ourselfs-others?

[Faceless]

Although I don’t mind these personal attacks, perhaps one could at least consider the obviousness and keep in mind what @robdl has said above. Maybe we can apply that understanding/awareness to our attacks as this mechanical urge arises . Observe ones own action in movement and relationship. I mean hey, this way one gets there fix in the glorification of their own image, yet the possibility of learning about oneself in relationship may arise. 

Give it a shot, attack away, but at least for your own sake, see the significance in @robdl‘s posts while taking those shots on an entity that doesn’t exist. Shadow box away friends

After all this thread is about fragmentation. This movement of fragmentation is quite obvious to detect. Maybe readers/members of the forum can benefit through observation of these attacks (fragmented action). And maybe those readers-members will get a first hand glimpse of fragmentation in movement in others, since the fragmented self does tend to hide its own contradictory movement. Never the less, it’s a win win, right?

To see the falsity that this compulsion to attack another may seem to positively charge ones own self image in the form of pleasure, but may actually only further establish, sustain, and perpetuate ones own self inflicted pain.

Can there be an awareness and therefore an ending to all this movement of fear? 

Once this is seen-understood, we find that we can learn from anyone. Relationship is the greatest teacher indeed.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Faceless

[robdl]

11 minutes ago, Mikael89 said:

I don't know.

We think we want-seek enlightenment, but if you become unconditionally aware, there is insight into thought's mechanical, compulsive wanting-seeking nature.  It's in thought's nature to seek-want-strive, but if we're not passively, attentively aware of that movement, we are then lost in thought --- identified with the wanting-seeking; meaning the "I" is in operation.

Edited September 17, 2018 by robdl

[robdl]

24 minutes ago, Mikael89 said:

There is always passive, effortless attention toward everything which happens. (Consciousness). And that applies even to totally unenlightened people.

But this may only essentially be a non-dual concept, piece of knowledge, that thought-self finds security in.  Thought-self loves non-dual knowledge.

The doing-trying-reactive thought-self, taking security in the idea-concept of ever-present effortless, passive attention.

It's like people who say "happiness lies within" but who are perpetually seeking happiness in the external.  They've simply adopted "happiness lies within" as an idea-concept to take refuge in.

Can you see how thought loves to take security-belief in enlightenment theory-concept?

Edited September 17, 2018 by robdl

[robdl]

14 minutes ago, Faceless said:

 

To see the falsity that this compulsion to attack another may seem to positively charge ones own self image in the form of pleasure, but may actually only further establish and sustain perpetuate ones own self inflicted pain.

Very significant here. 

Can you go into this pleasure component a bit more? People are likely not aware of the pleasure involved.

Edited September 17, 2018 by robdl

[Faceless]

I think going into pleasure would be good for the thread. Although my time on the forum is limited, I will get on later and say something about pleasure. 

That’s a good thing to go into indeed. 

Edited September 17, 2018 by Faceless

[Faceless]

Pleasure and pain are really one and the same

 

To go into it very simply and in a way that all can understand...

We get pleasure out of attacking one another. This pleasure is sustained by our acting in accordance to an image that gratifies, validates, self affirms, our own self image.  Action born of fear/seeking psychological security in thought. 

We attack one another to reinforce and strengthen our own self image. We invent the image and hide behind that image to escape the reality of fear. This self image being a defensive measure to ensure a sense of psychological security/permanence. 

Again, we construct and pursue the abstraction(image), in which we hide from the fact of fear. We then seek psychological security in that image to escape the fact/reality. 

The image serves as a safeguard that we can always resort to if we are feeling insecure, uncertain, and insignificant. We get pleasure by validating that image and we do so in many ways. Attacking others verbally  is one way..(antagonism, a subtle form of violence), will seemingly build up our self image, but because we depend on that means of validation (inventing the image to seek refuge in), we are implicitly creating an attachment/dependence on that image in which we then feel compelled to protect..kinda like the expressions; “you play, you pay” or “what goes up, must come down”.

This breeds fear because we then feel obligated to everlastingly feed that image in order to maintain a sense of order/safety. This is a exhausting way to live indeed. 

 

Do we see that this cannot be sustained, and that it is foolish to see-understand the truth of this, yet still continue to do so? 

 

The more we try and make something that is fundamentally impermanent permanent, the more we further perpetuate the inevitable outcome of psychological insecurity as a result. 

If I create an image to escape fear and pursue that image(pleasure), I also now have an image that can be opposed, which will bring pain and further fear. To seek psychological security in pleasure is to invite the inevitability of pain-suffering.

If I build an image to protect myself against feeling insecure, now I have an image that needs to be protected, so I am always in defense of that image. Therefore I am always on guard, quick to protect that self image, by any means necessary. 

We invent the image to protect “ourselves”, but do we see that by constructing that image we have built something impermanent that can be destroyed. 

This self image may provide pleasure, but pain is always waiting around the corner as a result. 

 

Can we see the significance in not forming an image? 

 

After all isn’t is obvious...

 

NO IMAGE NO PAIN, NO PAIN, NO SUFFERING, NO SUFFERING, NO NEED TO SEEK PLEASURE IN THOUGHT(THE IMAGE). 

 

NO IMAGE AND WE ARE THEN PSYCHOLOGICALLY INDESTRUCTIBLE. 

 

Do we see that to seek psychological security in the image actually nourishes this divisive process of fragmentation? 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2018 by Faceless

[Faceless]

4 hours ago, robdl said:

But this may only essentially be a non-dual concept, piece of knowledge, that thought-self finds security in.  Thought-self loves non-dual knowledge.

The doing-trying-reactive thought-self, taking security in the idea-concept of ever-present effortless, passive attention.

It's like people who say "happiness lies within" but who are perpetually seeking happiness in the external.  They've simply adopted "happiness lies within" as an idea-concept to take refuge in.

Can you see how thought loves to take security-belief in enlightenment theory-concept?

Oh the subtlety in this...

I feel understanding the phenomenon of thought/experience through self understanding-awareness is essential before even reading any non-dual knowledge.

You would be surprised, as the chances of you picking up a non-dual book(teaching) post learning and understanding thought-self(experience), would be slim to none, and totally unnecessary.

One may take interest in reading various non-dual teachings to cultivate ones communication skills so they could perhaps share the significance of freedom with another.

 Or one may want to read about somthing that they simply have interest in. To read something that was writen a thousand years ago, in which you yourself have also went through is kinda cool actually. But the idea that one needs to accumulate those teachings always comes second to self reflection/observation/self awareness. 

If we don’t understand how thought/self works we will then unconsciously be creating a plethora of illusions-self deception. 

 

Edited September 17, 2018 by Faceless

[abrakamowse]

On 9/16/2018 at 0:31 PM, SOUL said:

This thread is a Pollock painting of mental masturbation preaching a blank canvas although awareness is a field of hemp mingling with a rainbow pallet of wildflowers.

I would say a Kandinsky 

[robdl]

@Faceless Setting out to transcend that which is poorly/falsely understood. Tricky.

[Faceless]

@robdlOh no...We are walking this trackless wilderness together my friend

Edited September 18, 2018 by Faceless

[abrakamowse]

I suggest to just meditate, observe "yourself", be aware and insights will begin to come to you.

 

There's no way we can leave the matrix by "thinking"

[robdl]

2 minutes ago, Faceless said:

@robdlOh no...We are walking this trackless wilderness together my friend

my comment was in reference to people getting ahead of themselves - getting caught up in non dual knowledge without understanding thought's nature first. Wanting to transcend ego without even really understanding ego's nature first.

[Faceless]

11 minutes ago, robdl said:

my comment was in reference to people getting ahead of themselves - getting caught up in non dual knowledge without understanding thought's nature first. Wanting to transcend ego without even really understanding ego's nature first.

Indeed. It’s a common pattern of thought to cling to its own content. Self feeding loop right. 

To me it’s quite interesting to go into all of this.

Edited September 18, 2018 by Faceless

[robdl]

17 minutes ago, abrakamowse said:

I suggest to just meditate, observe "yourself", be aware and insights will begin to come to you.

 

There's no way we can leave the matrix by "thinking"

The thing is, when a lot of people meditate, they may be just thinking with their eyes closed/legs crossed. Because they may not appreciate all of thought's subtlety. To be in thought's trap but not realize it. So we share-discuss what those myriad of thought traps may be and what thought's nature is. Meditation may only serve to fuel ego, as "meditator," as "seeker", if thought is poorly-wrongly understood. Thought-ego can exploit this ignorance/lack of understanding for its own purposes.

Edited September 18, 2018 by robdl

[Faceless]

 

1 minute ago, robdl said:

The thing is, when a lot of people meditate, they may be just thinking with their eyes closed/legs crossed. Because they may not appreciate all of thought's subtlety. To be in thought's trap but not realize it. So we share-discuss what those myriad of thought traps may be and what thought's nature is. Meditation may only serve to fuel ego, as "meditator," if thought is poorly-wrongly understood. Thought-ego can exploit this ignorance/lack of understanding for its own purposes.

Well said. 

You see that right @abrakamowse? 

We have gone into this a little in the past. We are not “thinking” our way to freedom here. We are exploring the reality of illusion/thought/self and its very subtle movement. 

[robdl]

Thought is infinitely sneaky, deceptive, subtle. 

If you're going to tell someone to watch-guard the property, it's helpful to point out the ninjas that will be coming in camouflage at 3 a.m.

[Ingit]

I internally know everything that awareness is to key to undertsmad illusion, I don’t know why but I keep. On telling my friends these stuff... knowingly all, Im still trapped in my Mind illusion of making false things out of the thoughts... I always think that Maybe meditating daily will free me from everything and make my life enjoyable.

[abrakamowse]

13 minutes ago, Faceless said:

 

Well said. 

You see that right @abrakamowse? 

We have gone into this a little in the past. We are not “thinking” our way to freedom here. We are exploring the reality of illusion/thought/self and its very subtle movement. 

Yes, I see that... I just finished meditating. My mind was constantly trying to do something. "This is boring". "I want to sit that way", "I want to see the clock", "How long have I been meditating?" "This is too long, I am bored"...

 

and everytime I just stayed from the awareness perspective. I am aware of a thought who "thinks" this is boring... and I could finish meditating denying everything that tried to identify me with the "I" thought.

 

It was hard, when you see it from the "outside" it seems simple, but it is a war.

[Faceless]

4 minutes ago, robdl said:

Thought is infinitely sneaky, deceptive, subtle. 

If you're going to tell someone to watch-guard the property, it's helpful to point out the ninjas that will be coming in camouflage at 3 a.m.

Precisely said. 

What more can be said after this razor sharp post ?