The phenomenon of fragmentation

[now is forever]

@Jack River ok pantsies - where was i hostile exactly? i‘m just a little annoyed about the endles repetition followed by the endless: awesome dude...?

sorry, but hostile is your little wooden hollow horse.

love you, too. pantsies

Edited September 9, 2018 by now is forever

[MiracleMan]

2 hours ago, Faceless said:

Well, it doesn’t need a name. It’s all within oneself..To observe what-is without evasion to what should-be. The contradiction-limitation of escaping the fact to the abstraction. Movement of fragmentation(psychological time). 

 

Some have found FREEDOM without ever searching for it. Without accumulating any knowledge, or routines.

 

As for me one day I saw the futility in escape from the the fact, (fear). 

Fact of fear perpetually evading it’s own movement and feeding that very movement itself. 

I saw that the more “I” ran away from the fact of insecurity in search of the abstraction of  security, the more I nourished that fact of insecurity. 

This can happen to anyone, they just have to see the whole of this movement of thought-self and its very very sneaky ways

It takes a willingness to step off the cliff, and let go of the illusion of control??

 

 

 

What do you mean by abstraction, is it synonymous with form or objects?  

[Faceless]

1 hour ago, MiracleMan said:

What do you mean by abstraction, is it synonymous with form or objects?  

I will try and explain a tittle. I only have a few minutes to be on here. I will do my best to communicate it within the quick time frame. Give me a few minutes. 

[Faceless]

Just like in the application of building we utilize the abstraction(idea), (thought), and we pursue that idea to bring about the construction of that building. We go from A (open land), to B (a constructed building). 

 

A movement from A to B which involves the application of cultivated thought, and (time), from this, to that. 

 

We go from the fact (nothing or open land), and in accordance to that abstraction we get the end result, (new building). We move from the fact to abstraction which is to apply thought in a practical and functional way. This is using thought as a tool. Totally necessary indeed. 

 

 

The problem is somewhere along the line we started to move in accordance to that same pattern of thought psychologically as we didn’t see that the psychological me was illusionary. 

 

We continue that same movement of A to B, (I am this, I will be that). 

 

An example, say I am jealous,(fact), and I will pursue non-jealousy, (abstraction-idea). 

 

We evade the fact of jealousy to the abstraction of its opposite, non-jealousy. 

 

This is what thought-self does; it chooses between, and is always moving in a particular direction. I refer to this as positively-negative movement of the self-thought.

Example an using A-B-C would be, B is the fact, and the self-thought either wants to move positively to C, or negatively to A, both being the abstraction born of choice as the chooser(self). 

 

Thought does not like to stay with what-is, snd to maintain its own continuity,(self feeding loop), it will evade the fact of what-is, to the abstraction-idea of what should be.

 

The thing is if I am jealous as a fact, can that fact end itself by escaping that fact to an idea? 

 

If I am jealous, and conform to the idea on non-jealously, is there actually an end to jealousy? 

 

Or does that jealousy continue as fact and I simply continue to contradict myself and remain in denial of that actuality. Illusion of seeking psychological security. 

 

Therefore I am projecting an image through thought, and have created an escape from the fact. Thought has constructed a means of escape from what is. Thought always wants to escape to secure its own movement. Thought is the ultimate escape artist...To maintain its permanence the illusion of psychological time. 

 

If there is no entity separate from thought itself, then why is that “entity” seeking psychological security in itself, thought(abstraction)? 

 

Are you seeing the significance of this? 

 

The self, being a fragment of thought, but thinking it is independent of thought, is seeking security in itself to nourishes that illusion. 

 

Another example...

An “individual” who suffers wants to figure out how to kill “the self”. They will continually accumulate ideas, theory’s, concepts, conform to routines and try to apply all that as a means of ego destruction. This again, is another attempt of the illusion of self perpetuating its own movement by evading the fact and pursuing the abstraction. The self (thought), seeking security in thought. The self and all its movement to accumulate knowledge/practices and apply all of that as a means, is all one and the same movement of self-thought feeding itself very subtly. 

 

Any movement of the self-thought to conform too and apply its accumulated (experience, knowledge, through memory), is all one and the same movement of the illusory “self” feeding its own movement of time as the i. 

 

This is the self trying to end itself by using its own movement to do so. 

 

Again, thought-self, (illusion) will escape the fact (fear), and seek psychological security in the abstraction. Movement from A TO B. Thought does not like to just stay with A. Thought-self is very tricky and tells itself I wants to get to B, but doesn’t see that by doing so it is nourishing it’s own movement of psychological time(fragmentation). 

 

The self supposedly wants to kill itself, but instead staying with A, (the fact), it mechanically(out of fear), moves towards B, the idea. 

 

Sorry to carry on and on, but this can be very subtle. 

 

I hope it gave you some idea about the sneaky nature of thought-self and its (contradictory-dualistic) movement that sustains this endless self feeding loop. 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2018 by Faceless

[Jack River]

@Faceless 

2 hours ago, Faceless said:

Again, thought-self, (illusion) will escape the fact (fear), and seek psychological security in the abstraction. Movement from A TO B. Thought does not like to just stay with A. Thought-self is very tricky and tells itself I wants to get to B, but doesn’t see that by doing so it is nourishing it’s own movement of psychological time(fragmentation). 

 

It’s crazy how often this is happens through the day man. When I first starting seeing this it was seriously like every minute. Constant reactions or fear. 

[now is forever]

 

6 hours ago, Faceless said:

The self, being a fragment of thought, but thinking it is independent of thought, is seeking security in itself to nourishes that illusion. 

is that an admission to the model of partitions? as in skandhas?

but the way you talk it sometimes seams you think the thought is the only seat of the self. is body memory a thought, too?

 

Edited September 10, 2018 by now is forever

[now is forever]

so @Faceless do you want to restart the topic, or are you happy how it turned out?

i have some ideas that might challenge your model 

and i still don’t really get what kind of roll you are playing - it fits your facelessnes. 

[SOUL]

So many beliefs....so very many conceptually complicated beliefs....

Quote

Belief

Belief is the state of mind in which a person thinks something to be the case with or without there being empirical evidence to prove that something is the case with factual certainty. Another way of defining belief sees it as a mental representation of an attitude positively oriented towards the likelihood of something being true.

[now is forever]

@SOUL yeah, some foundation for deap sea diving - did you bring your goggles 

does the truth of a concept matter if it works as a tool?

Edited September 12, 2018 by now is forever

[Nahm]

@now is forever ??

[now is forever]

@Nahm

[Faceless]

Here we are taking about observing the reality of illusion. 

Before there is proceeding towards Truth, reality (res.) or  “things” (of mind/thought), must be observed/understood...As in sensation, reactions to sensations, the responding of sensations as an idea, which are created by thought. 

Can one investigate whether there is Truth or Not without understanding that which is, or which causes illusion?

If not, won’t such illusions corrupt/distort the investigation...We are starting nearer to home friends. Can’t go beyond that which one hasn’t yet begun.?

 

Edited September 12, 2018 by Faceless

[Nahm]

@Faceless ??

[now is forever]

@Faceless yes, yes, no, yes. maybe!

yes, yes, yes, yes - would also fit!

but are we talking about the reality of illusion? or are we talking about the illusion of reality?

because if you use a model, is there any difference between both?

(res.) as in response?

Edited September 12, 2018 by now is forever

[Ingit]

WOW I love this thread?

[MiracleMan]

On 9/9/2018 at 8:46 PM, Faceless said:

Just like in the application of building we utilize the abstraction(idea), (thought), and we pursue that idea to bring about the construction of that building. We go from A (open land), to B (a constructed building). 

 

A movement from A to B which involves the application of cultivated thought, and (time), from this, to that. 

 

We go from the fact (nothing or open land), and in accordance to that abstraction we get the end result, (new building). We move from the fact to abstraction which is to apply thought in a practical and functional way. This is using thought as a tool. Totally necessary indeed. 

 

 

The problem is somewhere along the line we started to move in accordance to that same pattern of thought psychologically as we didn’t see that the psychological me was illusionary. 

 

We continue that same movement of A to B, (I am this, I will be that). 

 

An example, say I am jealous,(fact), and I will pursue non-jealousy, (abstraction-idea). 

 

We evade the fact of jealousy to the abstraction of its opposite, non-jealousy. 

 

This is what thought-self does; it chooses between, and is always moving in a particular direction. I refer to this as positively-negative movement of the self-thought.

Example an using A-B-C would be, B is the fact, and the self-thought either wants to move positively to C, or negatively to A, both being the abstraction born of choice as the chooser(self). 

 

Thought does not like to stay with what-is, snd to maintain its own continuity,(self feeding loop), it will evade the fact of what-is, to the abstraction-idea of what should be.

 

The thing is if I am jealous as a fact, can that fact end itself by escaping that fact to an idea? 

 

If I am jealous, and conform to the idea on non-jealously, is there actually an end to jealousy? 

 

Or does that jealousy continue as fact and I simply continue to contradict myself and remain in denial of that actuality. Illusion of seeking psychological security. 

 

Therefore I am projecting an image through thought, and have created an escape from the fact. Thought has constructed a means of escape from what is. Thought always wants to escape to secure its own movement. Thought is the ultimate escape artist...To maintain its permanence the illusion of psychological time. 

 

If there is no entity separate from thought itself, then why is that “entity” seeking psychological security in itself, thought(abstraction)? 

 

Are you seeing the significance of this? 

 

The self, being a fragment of thought, but thinking it is independent of thought, is seeking security in itself to nourishes that illusion. 

 

Another example...

An “individual” who suffers wants to figure out how to kill “the self”. They will continually accumulate ideas, theory’s, concepts, conform to routines and try to apply all that as a means of ego destruction. This again, is another attempt of the illusion of self perpetuating its own movement by evading the fact and pursuing the abstraction. The self (thought), seeking security in thought. The self and all its movement to accumulate knowledge/practices and apply all of that as a means, is all one and the same movement of self-thought feeding itself very subtly. 

 

Any movement of the self-thought to conform too and apply its accumulated (experience, knowledge, through memory), is all one and the same movement of the illusory “self” feeding its own movement of time as the i. 

 

This is the self trying to end itself by using its own movement to do so. 

 

Again, thought-self, (illusion) will escape the fact (fear), and seek psychological security in the abstraction. Movement from A TO B. Thought does not like to just stay with A. Thought-self is very tricky and tells itself I wants to get to B, but doesn’t see that by doing so it is nourishing it’s own movement of psychological time(fragmentation). 

 

The self supposedly wants to kill itself, but instead staying with A, (the fact), it mechanically(out of fear), moves towards B, the idea. 

 

Sorry to carry on and on, but this can be very subtle. 

 

I hope it gave you some idea about the sneaky nature of thought-self and its (contradictory-dualistic) movement that sustains this endless self feeding loop. 

 

 

Hmmm...so in a sense I'm trapped, I feel trapped. 

But the one who feels trapped is simply deluding themselves into believing they are a seperate entity appearing inside something else?  

In my experience it feels quite physical, more than a thought, "I" feel like I'm in here, in the body, as an actual contraction, along with the idea or thought of myself, I might not be actively thinking of myself but the 'presence' of myself is an actual physical experience, accompanied by projected images of the face, a contraction in the solar plexus, tension and pain all over the body.

If someone says some harsh words to me, I feel a contraction in my solar plexus, sometimes its physical pain and panic there.  It is a totally conditioned reaction, and I've seen the impossibility of attack in my direct experience, but this was only a glimpse, a few examples I saw, but against a life time of unconscious belief it's like a drop of water disappearing in an ocean...

@Faceless Is there absolutely anything one can do?  It seems hopeless.  We can reasonably and rationally work through this, but logical understanding with the mind doesn't bring about an unveiling, it doesn't move anything out of the way.

I think what you're pointing to is that I have a fragmented perception, a selective perception, and I'm not seeing or thinking clearly at all.  It's very sneaky because even if I happen to notice what your saying in my direct experience, it doesn't seem to change.  Maybe this is because it's impossible to go with my direct experience when I've held a lifetime (or possibly lifetimes) of conditioned beliefs.

What is your opinion on belief and desire (intention), this is below thought and perception?  It can be modified, or, at least SEEN? 

I seem to be directed by thought, but what is the master of the thoughts?  What is the thought hanging on that gives it seeming power?  Are the thoughts hinging on unconscious beliefs, desires?

[Faceless]

@MiracleMan

I can see you have put some energy into this. That’s very important indeed. 

What you have written in response can really move along the thread. So if we can I would like to go one step at a time with what you wrote. If that is ok.

 

54 minutes ago, MiracleMan said:

so in a sense I'm trapped, I feel trapped.

This thread is mostly about understanding the reality of illusion/self deception or moving in accordance to incomplete or contradictory action. 

That being said, seeing the fact of all these traps and “the selfs” mechanical/habitual compulsion to be influenced by them, wouldn’t then a holistic understanding-attention/awareness to those traps as they arise be beneficial and therefore imply freedom to act without the burden of those traps? 

Would it be intelligent to say that awareness is freedom?

Edited September 13, 2018 by Faceless

[robdl]

1 hour ago, MiracleMan said:

 

I think what you're pointing to is that I have a fragmented perception, a selective perception, and I'm not seeing or thinking clearly at all.

The "I"/sense of personal identity-awareness itself being a fragment of thought, and perception taking place through this "I"-fragment.  Perceiving through the "I"-fragment is perceiving through a conditioned, selective lens.   

Thought creates an "I"-fragment out of its own movement, and then this "I"-fragment influences/breeds thought.  But it's all one, unitary movement of thought. 

Perceiving through the "I"-fragment is perceiving through the lens of conditioned memory, experience, knowledge, belief, and so on. 

Edited September 13, 2018 by robdl

[Ingit]

@robdl ??

1 hour ago, robdl said:

The "I"/sense of personal identity-awareness itself being a fragment of thought, and perception taking place through this "I"-fragment.  Perceiving through the "I"-fragment is perceiving through a conditioned, selective lens.   

Thought creates an "I"-fragment out of its own movement, and then this "I"-fragment influences/breeds thought.  But it's all one, unitary movement of thought. 

Perceiving through the "I"-fragment is perceiving through the lens of conditioned memory, experience, knowledge, belief, and so on. 

 

[robdl]

Thought creates a division out of its movement: "thinker" vs. "its" thoughts. 

The thoughts sustain-reinforce the "thinker" and the "thinker" feeds-sustains-projects the "thoughts."   A type of co-feeding happens. 

Thought needs this thinker|thoughts division (fragmentation) because it's the fuel for thought's movement. 

When there is no "I" fragment, i.e. no division, thought is deprived of its fuel.