Realizing Rationality Is A Fiction - Does It Matter?

[electroBeam]

I'm a little bit doubtful of whether being aware empirically about scientific theories and models being fictitious is useful and beneficial. 

I'm Sure being aware empirically about how gravity is just a model, and that its just a fictitious story that when mixed with other fictitious stories (constructs like measurements, other formulas) in a way that adheres to separate, fictitious rules, can produce new and interesting fictitious stories(like a concept about the amount of newtons required to launch a rocket into space) which through some unexplained(and something I'm frustratingly currently unaware of/unconscious of) epistemological magic can make colours in 'our' awareness change in a way that looks like a rocket launching into space, would be an awesome, and profound life changing experience/ perspective to have, but does it really matter if we have this perspective or not? Does it really practically change our lives for the better?

Like sure, realizing contradictions dont exist, or that there is nothing wrong with having a contradiction, because its not real sure is interesting, but how does that help our personal development?

I mean our objective here is to obtain happiness, which is done through shuffling symbols around(making a plan I mean) that, by what other unquestioned symbols tell us, should allow us accomplish our goals, and get a piece of happiness. How will going into the present moment, a realizing that the symbols we used werent actually real, help us? 

I'm even starting to wonder, what is the main problem with being religious? and having dogmatic religious beliefs? I just dont know anymore lol. Like we can still work on our attractiveness to the opposite sex, or work on our career or life purpose, while having very dogmatic, religious beliefs.

This isnt a 'why leave the park' argument. I am totally fine with people wanting to get to spiritual enlightenment by meditation because they 'believe' it will give them happiness or unconditional love, which I chose not to do because I am more focused on other things, but how does the realization that formulas and gravity arent in any form or shape real help us get confident, or develop emotional mastery? How does believing in god impede someone? Both individuals can pursue personal development either way. Why is dogmatism such a problem? Apart from because it causes conflicts, you can get past that by working on your social skills, and keep your dogmatism. 

I'm a little confused at the moment.

Edited March 25, 2016 by electroBeam

[DizIzMikey]

Skyrim is the shit right now due to the lack of knowledge I have currently maybe.

 

[DizIzMikey]

lmao

 

[DizIzMikey]

@Pinocchio Truth be told I enjoy sitting around doing nothing closing my eyes...it is such a relaxing state versus being active doing shit

[Neo]

Quote

but how does that help our personal development?

I took this all to be a hint or maybe even a metaphor for ... how deep you need to question everything in order to eventually question your own existence.

I mean, how will you ever question your whole self and whether it exists if you can't question gravity or, not gravity itself, but the whole freaking belief system of what makes a belief in the first place.

 

In other words, understand you are completely surrounded, absorbed, engulfed, in one giant belief system and you are at the centre of your belief system.

Edited March 25, 2016 by Neo

[Jimmylem]

@electroBeam

'Why is dogmatism such a problem?'

Because dogmatism is basically saying 'there's me ( and my dogmas, beliefs, assumptions) over here, versus you (plus your dogmas, beliefs, assumptions) over there..'

That's a dualistic viewpoint i.e. a viewpoint which assumes the notion of separateness. 

It assumes 'you' are an entity, and entity causes suffering. 

Edited March 25, 2016 by Jimmylem

[electroBeam]

So if I get an experience where I realize rationality is a fiction, What will be the immediate side effects? What will I be able to do, that people stuck in rational beliefs cannot?

I tried using an analogy of what can people with rational beliefs(stuck in orange and green stage) do that religious people(blue and purple stage) cannot do. Now sure, you could argue and say that rational people can put a man on the moon, but then again, putting a man on the moon is only amazing to us because our dogmatic beliefs tell it is(our beliefs like our ego, social status, and all other things made up). You could say that rationality allows us to understand the universe better, but does it really? Or does it allow us to just make up more fictitious models? That are only useful when you are trying to bend a certain social construct/construct/fiction to your will. 

All I see rationality doing is pursuing illusion, using illusion.

So if I was religious, why would I try and become rational?

Same applies with being a rational, why would I try and break out of my rationality? 

 

Why do you believe it is good to break out of rationality? 

@Jimmylem thankyou for the response.

[Nicole2602]

@DizIzMikey farcry primal.... guilty

[Nicole2602]

7 hours ago, electroBeam said:

So if I get an experience where I realize rationality is a fiction, What will be the immediate side effects? What will I be able to do, that people stuck in rational beliefs cannot?

I tried using an analogy of what can people with rational beliefs(stuck in orange and green stage) do that religious people(blue and purple stage) cannot do. Now sure, you could argue and say that rational people can put a man on the moon, but then again, putting a man on the moon is only amazing to us because our dogmatic beliefs tell it is(our beliefs like our ego, social status, and all other things made up). You could say that rationality allows us to understand the universe better, but does it really? Or does it allow us to just make up more fictitious models? That are only useful when you are trying to bend a certain social construct/construct/fiction to your will. 

All I see rationality doing is pursuing illusion, using illusion.

So if I was religious, why would I try and become rational?

Same applies with being a rational, why would I try and break out of my rationality? 

 

Why do you believe it is good to break out of rationality? 

@Jimmylem thankyou for the response.

@DizIzMikey farcry primal.... guilty

[Nicole2602]

"What will I be able to do, that people stuck in rational beliefs cannot?"

Maybe you'll be able to sit back, smile and enjoy the journey instead of trying to obsessively figure out how the car works? 

 

[NoOne]

23 hours ago, electroBeam said:

I'm a little bit doubtful of whether being aware empirically about scientific theories and models being fictitious is useful and beneficial. 

I'm Sure being aware empirically about how gravity is just a model, and that its just a fictitious story that when mixed with other fictitious stories (constructs like measurements, other formulas) in a way that adheres to separate, fictitious rules, can produce new and interesting fictitious stories(like a concept about the amount of newtons required to launch a rocket into space) which through some unexplained(and something I'm frustratingly currently unaware of/unconscious of) epistemological magic can make colours in 'our' awareness change in a way that looks like a rocket launching into space, would be an awesome, and profound life changing experience/ perspective to have, but does it really matter if we have this perspective or not? Does it really practically change our lives for the better?

Like sure, realizing contradictions dont exist, or that there is nothing wrong with having a contradiction, because its not real sure is interesting, but how does that help our personal development?

I mean our objective here is to obtain happiness, which is done through shuffling symbols around(making a plan I mean) that, by what other unquestioned symbols tell us, should allow us accomplish our goals, and get a piece of happiness. How will going into the present moment, a realizing that the symbols we used werent actually real, help us? 

I'm even starting to wonder, what is the main problem with being religious? and having dogmatic religious beliefs? I just dont know anymore lol. Like we can still work on our attractiveness to the opposite sex, or work on our career or life purpose, while having very dogmatic, religious beliefs.

This isnt a 'why leave the park' argument. I am totally fine with people wanting to get to spiritual enlightenment by meditation because they 'believe' it will give them happiness or unconditional love, which I chose not to do because I am more focused on other things, but how does the realization that formulas and gravity arent in any form or shape real help us get confident, or develop emotional mastery? How does believing in god impede someone? Both individuals can pursue personal development either way. Why is dogmatism such a problem? Apart from because it causes conflicts, you can get past that by working on your social skills, and keep your dogmatism. 

I'm a little confused at the moment.

I'm the reason why dogmaticism is bad.  We have to be able to figure this out without turning it into another ritual or another something that can be incorporated into the existing illusion of reality.  The truth can't be uncovered by closing your eyes for 1000 hours.  We all have to find it for ourselves.  I don't know anything yet I'm really sure, but I know  Empirical evaluation and discovery are their own rewards.  Why question what is essentially an opportunity to learn something first hand by direct observation and contemplation?  Here is a mystery.  Maybe one of the last great mysteries of our lives, and it's a thrilling and personal mystery:  who am I really?  What is this thing I call life?  Maybe it can't be answered perfectly by what we consider us, in our lifetimes, or maybe it can be, but the journey of challenging our assumptions and learning to exist in the moment is rewarding in and of itself.

[NoOne]

23 hours ago, electroBeam said:

I'm a little bit doubtful of whether being aware empirically about scientific theories and models being fictitious is useful and beneficial. 

I'm Sure being aware empirically about how gravity is just a model, and that its just a fictitious story that when mixed with other fictitious stories (constructs like measurements, other formulas) in a way that adheres to separate, fictitious rules, can produce new and interesting fictitious stories(like a concept about the amount of newtons required to launch a rocket into space) which through some unexplained(and something I'm frustratingly currently unaware of/unconscious of) epistemological magic can make colours in 'our' awareness change in a way that looks like a rocket launching into space, would be an awesome, and profound life changing experience/ perspective to have, but does it really matter if we have this perspective or not? Does it really practically change our lives for the better?

Like sure, realizing contradictions dont exist, or that there is nothing wrong with having a contradiction, because its not real sure is interesting, but how does that help our personal development?

I mean our objective here is to obtain happiness, which is done through shuffling symbols around(making a plan I mean) that, by what other unquestioned symbols tell us, should allow us accomplish our goals, and get a piece of happiness. How will going into the present moment, a realizing that the symbols we used werent actually real, help us? 

I'm even starting to wonder, what is the main problem with being religious? and having dogmatic religious beliefs? I just dont know anymore lol. Like we can still work on our attractiveness to the opposite sex, or work on our career or life purpose, while having very dogmatic, religious beliefs.

This isnt a 'why leave the park' argument. I am totally fine with people wanting to get to spiritual enlightenment by meditation because they 'believe' it will give them happiness or unconditional love, which I chose not to do because I am more focused on other things, but how does the realization that formulas and gravity arent in any form or shape real help us get confident, or develop emotional mastery? How does believing in god impede someone? Both individuals can pursue personal development either way. Why is dogmatism such a problem? Apart from because it causes conflicts, you can get past that by working on your social skills, and keep your dogmatism. 

I'm a little confused at the moment.

I'm the reason why dogmaticism is bad.  We have to be able to figure this out without turning it into another ritual or another something that can be incorporated into the existing illusion of reality.  The truth can't be uncovered by closing your eyes for 1000 hours.  We all have to find it for ourselves.  I don't know anything yet I'm really sure, but I know  Empirical evaluation and discovery are their own rewards.  Why question what is essentially an opportunity to learn something first hand by direct observation and contemplation?  Here is a mystery.  Maybe one of the last great mysteries of our lives, and it's a thrilling and personal mystery:  who am I really?  What is this thing I call life?  Maybe it can't be answered perfectly by what we consider us, in our lifetimes, or maybe it can be, but the journey of challenging our assumptions and learning to exist in the moment is rewarding in and of itself.

[Jimmylem]

On 24 March 2016 at 10:16 PM, electroBeam said:

So if I was religious, why would I try and become rational?

Same applies with being a rational, why would I try and break out of my rationality? 

 

Good Questions @electroBeam !

It might be helpful to consider the three stages  that Leo outlines in his video on Rationality. This is all new to me, so I'm definitely in enquiry mode myself - but this is what I am getting....

1) Pre-rationality, ie Reality explained by the systems and beliefs contained in Religion, Myth, Magic..

2) Rationality,Science, Reason, the explanation of the universe using models and symbols which is corroborated by evidence and consensus within the (scientific) community.

3) Post-rationality. This stage can only be entered after reaching a state of Awareness, Awakening or Enlightenment. 

Note that Post-rationality is not the same as Irrationality. Rationalism often assumes that it is the same thing, and uses this to discredit Post-rationality, lumping it together with Pre-rationality. Rationality assumes this because, in general, it can only function within it's rationally-delineated paradigm. 

So...why would a religious person try to become rational, or a rational try to become Post-rational? Viewed from within either of those paradigms, there is no reason. There can be no reason (that won't immediately be shot down in flames by the inner voice) viewed from within the 'dream'.

It's the same as asking why, if I'm living in the dream of self, would I want to become Enlightened? What's to gain? Again, viewed from within the dream, there's nothing to gain, only stuff to be lost...

But for some people - probably not very many people - the thing which would act as a driver would a realisation like:- ' I feel like I'm suffering...why am I suffering?'

(It's necessary to be in a state of mindfulness to get even this far, and this state is not common, and not very encouraged in our society)

But if attained then at least there is a chance that (an) awakening may occur IF honesty, grounded openness and sincere intent (to explore) are present.

 

 

Edited March 29, 2016 by Jimmylem

[Cuzzo]

Sometimes for split periods of time, I am able to shut off my mind to the point where I can observe everything around me in a non rational manner. Just having the small ability to connect to that and see it in that manner makes my "real world problems" not seem so crazy. It's like "oh yeah this is all a giant game!".