Why is suffering bad?

[Forestluv]

@Scholar Those are some good questions. My mind wants to simplify the issue. Yet, it's very nuanced and complex as you are finding.

You wrote:

"But then when I look at the suffering there is something about it that I cannot explain in words that makes it seem like it is bad. I just can't articulate it, but then there is also something that makes it seem like just another experience, that I cannot articulate either."

I go through this a lot. Perhaps it's a paradox. For example, sometimes "spirituality" seems so impersonal. There is no "I". The true "me" is one with everything. There is nothing to do than to be in the present moment. It's so amazingly simple. Yet, it also seems so personal. The spiritual journey feels deeply personal. My direct experience feels personal. There is a desire to grow and evolve.

What if we stepped away from the term "bad"? And thought of suffering as energy. There are many forms of energy. Suffering seems like a seeking energy. An energetic yearning for a different present moment. Perhaps the seeking energy can be mild or it can be very strong.

When I see an animal experiencing pain, they don't seem to have the same type of seeking energy as humans. They seem to be experiencing the pain in the present moment and may avoid the source of the pain. Yet, they don't seem to have the same type of yearning and struggling as humans. The sense of powerless and loss of control. The thinking about how things could be better if only such-and-such happens.

Have you listened to awakened spiritual teachers on suffering? That might shed some insight.

I've never done a solo retreat. Yet, boredom over extended periods and not being able to leave would likely lead to a degree of suffering for me. Yet, it probably wouldn't cause any permanent harm.

 

[Scholar]

26 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Scholar Those are some good questions. My mind wants to simplify the issue. Yet, it's very nuanced and complex as you are finding.

You wrote:

"But then when I look at the suffering there is something about it that I cannot explain in words that makes it seem like it is bad. I just can't articulate it, but then there is also something that makes it seem like just another experience, that I cannot articulate either."

I go through this a lot. Perhaps it's a paradox. For example, sometimes "spirituality" seems so impersonal. There is no "I". The true "me" is one with everything. There is nothing to do than to be in the present moment. It's so amazingly simple. Yet, it also seems so personal. The spiritual journey feels deeply personal. My direct experience feels personal. There is a desire to grow and evolve.

What if we stepped away from the term "bad"? And thought of suffering as energy. There are many forms of energy. Suffering seems like a seeking energy. An energetic yearning for a different present moment. Perhaps the seeking energy can be mild or it can be very strong.

When I see an animal experiencing pain, they don't seem to have the same type of seeking energy as humans. They seem to be experiencing the pain in the present moment and may avoid the source of the pain. Yet, they don't seem to have the same type of yearning and struggling as humans. The sense of powerless and loss of control. The thinking about how things could be better if only such-and-such happens.

Have you listened to awakened spiritual teachers on suffering? That might shed some insight.

I've never done a solo retreat. Yet, boredom over extended periods and not being able to leave would likely lead to a degree of suffering for me. Yet, it probably wouldn't cause any permanent harm.

 

When I listen to spiritual teachers they usually talk about what is causing suffering and how to avoid it, but I have not yet seen someone explain why it is bad or what it truly is. Yes, attachment to things causes suffering, but is losing something you are attached actually suffering? That just seems like language games to me and it does not really explain anything but the mechanics of it.

You are right, maybe it is a paradox and the mind cannot grasps it, but then why are we so certain of suffering being intrinsically bad?

 

The problem with strong-determination sittings is that they are voluntary and that once the mind cannot take it anymore it will give in. But what happens when the mind cannot take it anymore but cannot give in? What happens when one knows that it will not stop? Aren't those drastically different forms of suffering? Like when you lose someone you love, you know that they are gone forever, and there is nothing you can do to make them come back. That is suffering that you cannot just give in to, it's not just a test. But maybe I don't even need to experience such intense suffering to learn about it.

I would agree that suffering is well described as some sort of seeking-energy experience, after all that is what it actually does. It makes us do things that we otherwise wouldn't. It seems like this energy can become incredibly intense, so much so that it damages the structure of the mind. But it seems to me like Leo is going further than that, like this energy is something that should be avoided because after all it will make you act in a certain way that will make you avoid it anyways. It's like there is no escape of it. But then, I don't understand why that is. It seems so circular, we "should" avoid suffering because suffering will make us try to avoid it.

 

When Leo says it's stupid to act this way I actually think he is making a moral statement, because stupidity implies that one acts out of order of how one ought to act to reach a certain goal. There is nothing stupid in the universe if there is no goal to anything that is happening, though as soon as you set up a goal, one can act stupidly because on can act in misalignment with that goal. And maybe when Leo says it's stupid, he means because programmed into my mind is the avoidance of suffering, as some sort of biological imperative, which by acting against it I create actions that might be deemed as stupid, because obviously it will put me in situations where I will act in accordance to my biological imperative either way. Though I don't understand why he deems this objectively stupid, how is this biological imperative actually valuable if that is subjective? And even worse, it's not even subjective, it's seems to be more like a stone rolling down a hill. It is just what is happening in the mind.

 

Edited August 31, 2018 by Scholar

[Forestluv]

27 minutes ago, Scholar said:

When I listen to spiritual teachers they usually talk about what is causing suffering and how to avoid it, but I have not yet seen someone explain why it is bad or what it truly is. Yes, attachment to things causes suffering, but is losing something you are attached actually suffering? That just seems like language games to me and it does not really explain anything but the mechanics of it.

You are right, maybe it is a paradox and the mind cannot grasps it, but then why are we so certain of suffering being intrinsically bad?

 

The problem with strong-determination sittings is that they are voluntary and that once the mind cannot take it anymore it will give in. But what happens when the mind cannot take it anymore but cannot give in? What happens when one knows that it will not stop? Aren't those drastically different forms of suffering? Like when you lose someone you love, you know that they are gone forever, and there is nothing you can do to make them come back. That is suffering that you cannot just give in to, it's not just a test. But maybe I don't even need to experience such intense suffering to learn about it.

I agree with you that there can be an underlying sentiment that suffering is "bad" and we want to move beyond it - even in spiritual circles. Perhaps because humans have such a strong desire to escape suffering. Many people enter spirituality and meditation for relief for suffering. What is a spiritual teacher considered suffering as just another happening? How popular would their retreats and satsangs be? People will be attracted to teachers they think can help them move beyond suffering.

There is a big difference between suffering you know you can stop and suffering you can't stop. I've pushed shamanic breathing to points of strong discomfort, mild suffering - yet I know I can stop the process anytime. I still have control. I've also experience strong discomfort, mild suffering with psychedelics, yet I can't stop the process. I don't have control. The suffering is a different flavor. Not being able to stop it adds a twist of anxiety/panic that changes the essence of the suffering for me.

Perhaps there a many forms of suffering and people try to reduce it to over-simplified explanations.

I think teaching spirituality is super challenging. Every mind has a very complex makeup and pattern. Every mind is at a different stage of evolution. Even a highly complex model like spiral dynamics can't capture it all. At times, I find it really hard to meet someone where they are at and express something in a way that is helpful. I've been trying to get in better touch with my intuition to do so.

[Nahm]

@Scholar In the fragmented or duality / thinking perspective, saying all suffering is self imposed via false understanding is perceived at best as stoic, but typically of course as insensitive, inappropriate, insulting, or even psychopathic, but from the nondual perspective, there is no suffering.  Suffering is usually related to the path and all things enlightenment in this way. There is a noteworthy relationship between our experiences of suffering or witnessing of suffering, and the severity of falsity it reinforced, that we need to let go of. 

It’s possible you have not experienced much or any suffering, and find it hard to see because it’s relatively easier for you to let go. 

[dharm4]

This sounds like a question of someone who does not know how bad suffering can get. Be careful with your naivety. You might get an answer you won’t like. It is not an intellectual exercise.

Edited September 1, 2018 by dharm4

[Scholar]

I don't know, the more curious I get about suffering the less able I am to investigate it. I did some strong-determination sitting in an uncomfortable position until my butt hurt so much that I was going to vomit, and the only reason I stopped is because I didn't want to make a mess. That might have been an excuse my mind made up, but as I watched the suffering I really couldn't find anything bad about it. All it was was a feeling that changed my thoughts and my attitude, or perspective. It made my curiosity disappear and I could feel myself being pulled towards a behavior that would make the experience of pain cease to exist. Though the more I looked the less badness I could observe in that resistance.

I also noticed that it takes focus to resist to surrender to the resistance, I had to be conscious of the energy that was pulling me towards a certain behavior so that I would not actually act out said behavior. I noticed myself surrender to that kind of energy afterwards in multiple occasions, when I have been not focused on the experience of suffering and instead just let myself act out the way my mind set itself out to act.

Though I still do not see the evil within suffering. In fact, the more curious I get about suffering the less it seems to affect me. I do not fear shame nearly as much as I did before, simply because I am actually curious as to what will happen if I actually experience shame. 

 

Before I was always trying to avoid suffering, even when I was trying to surrender to it. When I listened to gurus, or even to Leo, it seems like I was using the techniques and the advice as a way to free myself of suffering eventually. When I previously attempted strong determination sitting, it was terribly straining, I was not able to take it for long. After having read up on morality, what is truly good and evil, I think I have cultivated a true curiosity for suffering. I actually do want to know what will happen if I suffer, and what about it seems so intrinsically bad. I am not doing it for some greater purpose, to learn how to not suffer, or to somehow become a stoic person who can take anything. There is a part in my mind that truly wants to know what kind of suffering it takes for me to finally see it's nature, and whether or not it carries any significance.

 

Can I truly know suffering if I am deeply curious about it? And how can I keep my curiosity alive in the presence of unbearable suffering? How do we go about the investigation of suffering?

There is an uneasy feeling that seems to be actually more powerful than the suffering itself, it seems like there is a fear of the curiosity itself, rather than the suffering I am experience while investigating it. The kind of "Will I actually go insane if I keep going with this?"-feeling, which I remember I had when I was visualizing what it would mean to be actually dead, though that was years ago.

Edited September 4, 2018 by Scholar

[dorg]

1 hour ago, Scholar said:

Can I truly know suffering if I am deeply curious about it? And how can I keep my curiosity alive in the presence of unbearable suffering? How do we go about the investigation of suffering?

There is an uneasy feeling that seems to be actually more powerful than the suffering itself, it seems like there is a fear of the curiosity itself, rather than the suffering I am experience while investigating it. The kind of "Will I actually go insane if I keep going with this?"-feeling, which I remember I had when I was visualizing what it would mean to be actually dead, though that was years ago.

You can know what suffering is when you no longer think you are someone somewhere.

The "uneasy feeling", the "fear of the curiosity itself" are both basically fear or suffering. And as you "keep going with this" in sds - this feeling, this fear, this suffering - it disappears.

You do not go insane, you wake up.

This is because fear/anxiety/suffering only happens to a thought-to-be entity, the ego; IOW you as you think you are in this world. This only happens in mind/thought.

Wake up - get out of mind/thought and do not go back in, or if you do, go back in consciously.

Edited September 4, 2018 by dorg

[lmfao]

@Scholar I could tell you that all suffering is a thought, but that is generally unhelpful as advice alone. Like Leo said, people who are suffering should just obverse it. Thoughts however can be very strongly linked to physical processes. If I indefinitely deprive you of any food, all the consciousness work in the world won't allow you to stop awareness being consumed in thoughts/suffering. Maybe I'm wrong for extremely extremely high consciousness people.

And yeah, suffering can get extremely deep. I've had emotional breakdowns where I've hyperventilated and cried for over 40 minutes straight (Lmao at the accidental holotropic breathing). I had thoughts racing so fast you wouldn't believe and spiraling out of control to the point where I thought I was genuinely going insane. 

Edited September 4, 2018 by lmfao

[Talkawuer]

On 30.08.2018 at 3:49 PM, NoSelfSelf said:

Suffering is attachment to things that cant last...

Buddha and Eckhart Tolle says the same. And it is really disturbing first when you hear that "suffering is your making" especially when you are suffering. But when you are in a peaceful state and take a look what happened at that time of period, you will distinctly see that it's your making and nothing else. Btw. mind does great job to replicate/duplicate your suffering.

 

[SOUL]

'Why is suffering bad? Why? Why is it? Why? Why?'

Like a squirrel chasing a nut....

[Scholar]

@SOUL I think I know what you mean now.

[LaraGreenbridge]

On 31 August 2018 at 9:40 PM, Scholar said:

I think I have put the wrong question into the topic-header. I am aware of the philosophy behind how suffering is created, what it's purpose is and so on, but I am more curious about the experience of suffering itself and why it should be avoided? What about suffering is inherently undesirable in a way that a fully conscious human should strive to avoid it?

I know that it's unpleasant, that suffering also include absolute terror, but why are these things any different from experiences like joy? I don't really believe in good and evil, but to me it seems like the experience of suffering carries what we would call evil in it because we find it intrinsically undesirable. How is that possible? Why is it that suffering is such an intensely negative experience, and what does that even mean?

It becomes weird because it's kind of like trying to make sense of the experience of colors, I cannot really make any sense of it other than just saying it exists and it is what it is.

I understand you @Scholar. You are just carrying a philosophical debate through to its natural end. This can be a lonely place, and I have been there.

Why is suffering inherently bad?

Why is suffering 'bad' and pleasure 'good'?

Well... Firstly, because our physical bodies are designed to survive to maturity and reproduce and be capable of caring for our young. Eating a delicious meal is pleasurable, because food enables our survival. Drinking a glass of water on a hot day is pleasurable or "good" for the same reason. Hunger is unpleasant.

Having your fingers hurt badly while frying fish for dinner is "bad", and it causes suffering. This is because we need our hands for survival. Hands are an amazing feat of engineering! We can do so many things with them. If everyone damaged their hands in some way, society would come to a bit of a standstill.

Pain or suffering warns us that something threatens our survival, and so we pay heed, because ultimately, we want to survive, to grow and mature and maybe even reach enlightenment one day. Without suffering, we would have no idea that we had burnt our hand, so we might ignore the injury and then get an infection, become sick and even die. So suffering serves an important evolutionary function. 

Secondly, we can recognise pain and suffering in others and it this recognition can cause us to feel empathy. Empathy and altruism have led society to develop to such a degree, because people look after each other and co-operate to get things done. 

If you become depressed or experience depersonalisation, pleasure and pain may well become irrelevant to you. This is not a good place to be in. Depression and depersonalisation do not serve the ultimate survival of the species.

(I hope you are not experiencing depersonalisation @Scholar, excuse me if that is an intrusive question. I hope your question is only a philosophical one.)

I suppose you will now ask "Why would it be so bad if the human species died out because we couldn't tell the difference between pleasure and suffering?"

Well.... For the planet it wouldn't be so bad at all! The other species would all enjoy life without the humans around, causing trouble.  For those of us humans who love life, I think it would be a loss. I like being alive. 

Interestingly enough, colours also serve an evolutionary purpose. There are a lot of studies by evolutionary biologists out there into this topic. You can look it up, if you are interested.

I hope this helps. 

 

Edited September 7, 2018 by LaraGreenbridge