Why is suffering bad?

[SOUL]

21 hours ago, Scholar said:

That is not true though, I can finance the suffering of billions of beings without ever having to deal with any consequences, so why would I not do so? And why is it important to avoid suffering at all? I know that I will avoid it because I am an ego, but so what? Even if I want it to stop and regret it, why is that a bad thing?

Is the only reason to avoid suffering in others so that I myself don't suffer? And is the only reason why I should avoid my own suffering because I will not like it?

 

I understand that suffering makes me behave and think certain ways, but what is inherently bad about these actions and thoughts, and the suffering itself?

Well, isn't that what I said? Although, just because someone tries to put separation between themselves and the suffering they caused others doesn't mean they don't pay any consequences. The prison isn't always steel and concrete, it can be thoughts and emotion, too.

Anyone who is at peace in their own life, in a state of genuine well being will not intend to cause suffering in others. Their words and deeds, inspired by the thought and emotion they have will reflect the sense of well being they experience.

You think you have found some rationalization by questioning if it's "bad", that's just evidence of your own suffering. You're trying to justify it by doubting if it's "bad" in hopes you can take the sting out of the misery your self induced suffering is causing you.

Oh, yea, I know, I know. You now will profess to not be suffering but like I just pointed out, words and deeds reflect the inner life. If you were genuinely at peace in a state of well being you wouldn't be on this forum trying to justify suffering. You exposed your 'self'.

You can let go of it the need to justify it and when your own 'self' tries to cause you suffering, you don't have to agree to it.

Edited August 31, 2018 by SOUL

[Leo Gura]

@Scholar There is no reason to avoid anything. Rather, you are being invited to become conscious of how you are creating suffering. That is all.

Don't turn consciousness work into some sort of normative morality guilt trip.

You don't have to do anything. If you want to kill yourself, you are free to do so. There are no shoulds here. It's a question of how you want to live life.

It would be pretty stupid to live life kicking yourself in the nuts everyday. But of course you are free to do so.

Just think about how stupid what you are saying is.

If you had to power to stop your own suffering, you would do so without hesitation.

It sounds like you live a cushy life without having suffered deeply. One day, you will face suffering so deep you will rethink your compacent position about it.

You have no good sense yet how deep humans can suffer.

Let's see how you will feel after you get into a car crash and half your face burns off in the fire. At which point you post your whiney victim story here and we will respond with: "How is this any different than joy? Why is suffering bad?"

Then you will rethink your position.

The ego loves to talk shit and act aloof while it is safe and comfy. But then, as soon as it gets a scratch, it cries and whines about how life is terrible and unfair.

[robdl]

On 8/29/2018 at 6:05 PM, Scholar said:

Why is suffering bad? What about the experience of suffering is intrinsically undesirable? Or is suffering itself "undesire"? But what are it's actual qualities? What is truly the difference between suffering and joy? 
 

If suffering is fuelled by the false premise that there is an "I" apart from its thoughts, shouldn't we uncover this falsity-illusion?

It's like asking: why wake up from a dream ridden by unnecessary division-conflict?

[isabel]

I had some really similar questions just recently

and the same realizations that some people have posted here

suffering is not bad - it can be a great blessing

once you realize that then instead of identifying with suffering you use suffering when it arises to create more and more space between yourself and the suffering that you used to be before you saw that you are not that

you can (if you want to) move on to eliminating suffering so that your mind becomes free from that turmoil and you can continue on to more from there

I don't think creating suffering is the right way to say it, more like suffering is the default for most humans from birth - so we are creating it but it's not like it's a conscious decision

there is no source for suffering, we just suffer because we believe what we think, it's normal

once you've suffered enough you can switch out of default mode and see more different stuff

there is only a source for NOT suffering so you don't have to do anything, just let go 

the experiences of joy and suffering are different so that we know what each one of them is

if there was nothing but pure joy all the time there would be no way to define it, we define things by also knowing what they aren't

Edited August 31, 2018 by isabel

[Faceless]

As long as “the i” is acted in accordance too, so follows such a pattern as rationalization.

This is the nature of the self; to maintain its own progression in the illusion of false permanence.

It will defend by any means necessary, and justify its own action as coherent. The self depends on movement of the self. Because the self seeks security it’s movement, action inevitably remains incoherent. 

This movement of rationalization is just another movement of procrastination. This is just another example of incomplete action. 

 

Have you noticed this movement of thought and the compulsion to procrastinate on action?

When oneself acts with the notion that the self and what it thinks are actually separate, thinking then always acts in accordance to fear. Then action is always contradicting. 

 

Is this not the position in which you find yourself, and a common position to man/woman kind?

One desire in opposition to another desire. This divided action is always going to lead to confusion, contradiction, conflict. 

 

As long as action is followed by thought, this type of psychologically bound movement pattern will manifest itself in such forms as rationalization, self affirmation, self validation, and so on.

Otherwise known as being caught in the loop of causation⭕️

Edited August 31, 2018 by Faceless

[phoenix666]

I found that what actually causes me the most suffering, is running away from suffering

suffering will persist, as long as we resist it .. 

but if we try to embrace it..

[ajasatya]

i don't find suffering "bad". it's just uncomfortable.

it's also a great master.

[phoenix666]

2 minutes ago, ajasatya said:

it's also a great master.

oh yes, for me too. it's the greatest teacher for becoming a more humble and compassionate being <3

Edited August 31, 2018 by phoenix666

[Scholar]

 

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

@Scholar There is no reason to avoid anything. Rather, you are being invited to become conscious of how you are creating suffering. That is all.

Don't turn consciousness work into some sort of normative morality guilt trip.

You don't have to do anything. If you want to kill yourself, you are free to do so. There are no shoulds here. It's a question of how you want to live life.

It would be pretty stupid to live life kicking yourself in the nuts everyday. But of course you are free to do so.

Just think about how stupid what you are saying is.

If you had to power to stop your own suffering, you would do so without hesitation.

It sounds like you live a cushy life without having suffered deeply. One day, you will face suffering so deep you will rethink your compacent position about it.

You have no good sense yet how deep humans can suffer.

Let's see how you will feel after you get into a car crash and half your face burns off in the fire. At which point you post your whiney victim story here and we will respond with: "How is this any different than joy? Why is suffering bad?"

Then you will rethink your position.

The ego loves to talk shit and act aloof while it is safe and comfy. But then, as soon as it gets a scratch, it cries and whines about how life is terrible and unfair.

Why would it be stupid to live life kicking yourself in the nuts everyday? You seem to be claiming that it is self-evident, but that is precisely what I am questioning. I am aware of the fact that I am not in a position of great suffering, and that if I was, there would be very different kinds of experiences manifesting in consciousness, such as an experience of regret, resistance etc.

But why does that matter, truly? Why do you say is it stupid to suffer, and to regret suffering? Why is the experience of regret an inherently stupid thing to manifest in consciousness?

 

Yes, all these thoughts I am having right now will disappear in an instant if enough of the experience of suffering manifests itself in consciousness, and as a result of that new thoughts and behavior will arise. I will rethink my position, of course I will, but isn't that only because my mind is made to do so? 

 

I know the behavior will happen, but my question is what is inherently bad about that behavior? Even if I experience the greatest amount of suffering possible, what is it that is actually happening? Is it truly something bad? And if not, why is it stupid to inflict it to oneself?

Edited August 31, 2018 by Scholar

[MM1988]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

@Scholar 

It would be pretty stupid to live life kicking yourself in the nuts everyday. But of course you are free to do so.

If you suffer from depression not thinking "stupid thoughts" it not a simple choice but feels like swimming up against a river. You may do well for a while but then you simply give up and give in to self pity. Thats what my reality feels like at times. The positive side of it that without suffering I wouldnt give a shit about spirituality, in the times I feel the lowest meditation seems natural and comes easy, when Im happy and excited its almost impossible and I tend to cut my sessions short. I think its supposed to work like that, but who knows.

[robdl]

23 minutes ago, Scholar said:

 

Why would it be stupid to live life kicking yourself in the nuts everyday? You seem to be claiming that it is self-evident, but that is precisely what I am questioning. I am aware of the fact that I am not in a position of great suffering, and that if I was, there would be very different kinds of experiences manifesting in consciousness, such as an experience of regret, resistance etc.

But why does that matter, truly? Why do you say is it stupid to suffer, and to regret suffering? Why is the experience of regret an inherently stupid thing to manifest in consciousness?

 

Yes, all these thoughts I am having right now will disappear in an instant if enough of the experience of suffering manifests itself in consciousness, and as a result of that new thoughts and behavior will arise. I will rethink my position, of course I will, but isn't that only because my mind is made to do so? 

 

I know the behavior will happen, but my question is what is inherently bad about that behavior? Even if I experience the greatest amount of suffering possible, what is it that is actually happening? Is it truly something bad? And if not, why is it stupid to inflict it to oneself?

Suffering, by its very definition, is negative. 

You're basically asking, why is negativity negative?  What makes stupidity stupid?  What makes hardship hard?  What's so inherently painful about pain? What's bad about badness?  What's depressing about depression? What's problematic about a problem?

 

If you see nothing wrong with suffering or no inherent problem with it, then you're not actually talking about suffering, as it's defined/understood.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2018 by robdl

[Scholar]

9 minutes ago, robdl said:

Suffering, by its very definition, is negative. 

You're basically asking, why is negativity negative?  What makes stupidity stupid?  What makes hardship hard?  What's so inherently painful about pain? What's bad about badness?

 

If you see nothing wrong with suffering or no inherent problem with it, then you're not actually talking about suffering, as it's defined/understood.

I think my question is more of "What is negativity truly, and why is it stupid to stop avoiding it?".

I never said I see nothing wrong with suffering, I am questioning the nature of wrongness.

Edited August 31, 2018 by Scholar

[robdl]

1 minute ago, Scholar said:

I think my question is more of "What is negativity truly, and why is it stupid to stop avoiding it?".

Have you considered that the mind may be throwing out these kinds of questions-problems to procrastinate, distract, and therefore perpetuate itself? To avoid true meditation/facing what-is? 

If you get a satisfactory answer to this question, what do you intend to do with that answer?  How will this answer serve you?  What is the crux of your actual problem here?

[Leo Gura]

57 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Why would it be stupid to live life kicking yourself in the nuts everyday? You seem to be claiming that it is self-evident, but that is precisely what I am questioning.

You're lucky you're not in a Zen monastery, as that kind of question would get you a hard kick in the nuts.

Like I said, you haven't really suffered yet.

[robdl]

Thought needlessly creates a question-problem "what's so bad about suffering?" - then goes about trying to answer it.  Then argues over the answers it gets, based in accordance with its existing beliefs-assumptions-conclusions.

Thought's self-perpetuating nature in action.     Cause-effect-cause.  Self-feeding loop.

[robdl]

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You're lucky you're not in a Zen monastery, as that kind of question would get you a hard kick in the nuts.

Like I said, you haven't really suffered yet.

I love the fact that you can roundhouse kick a guy's skull in, potentially knocking him unconscious and leaving him with lasting brain damage, but you can't kick him in the groin (where there is a protective cup).  That's where they draw the line.

Edited August 31, 2018 by robdl

[isabel]

negativity is just you identifying with negative thoughts, that's all it is

the goal is not to avoid negativity, the goal is to not have negativity cause turmoil in your mind

so you know it's happening but it doesn't bother you any more

if you do want to remove turmoil from your mind and move on toward seeing more truth, then it's stupid to cause and be the victim of more suffering - because then you would be doing the opposite of what your goal is...

if you're not ready for that then you will just naturally suffer some more until you are ready

 

[Scholar]

47 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You're lucky you're not in a Zen monastery, as that kind of question would get you a hard kick in the nuts.

Like I said, you haven't really suffered yet.

I don't understand. I have had these kinds of things happen to me a lot when I did martial arts, nothing really changed. Every time I suffered it never really changed anything in the end, because the suffering always ends, and it will eventually for all sentient beings as we all have to die.

But that is not even my question, I do know that my behavior changes from suffering, like these peoples behavior, but I do not understand suffering itself. If the experience is void of behavior, of reaction, then what is it that suffering is? Is suffering still suffering if there is no reaction from the mind? Or are these things connected? But then what is suffering other than something that adjusts aspects of the mind?

 

I know I sound edgy but I am confused as to what it is. I can clearly see that suffering is motivating me to write this, and I do see that the behavior is linked to the experience, but what does any of that matter? Nothing can corrupt reality, nothing can harm it, nothing can make it suffer, right? Even if there is total immersion in suffering, nothing actually is happen to reality itself, it seems to stay the same. So what does any of it matter?

Are you saying I should not create suffering because I cannot not be trying to avoid it, as my mind is structured in a way to inherently avoid and resist it? But this all seems like just another game that will end one day either way, and I do know that I will be playing this game either way. The more I think about this, the less I know what I am even questioning here.  

[Forestluv]

@Scholar I think I misinterpreted the sentiment of your earlier posts.

Have you considered doing a solo retreat to contemplate these matters?

Also, perhaps consider volunteering in an environment with suffering. I volunteered in a psychiatric unit counseling patients for several years which gave me insight into the nature of suffering.

[Scholar]

29 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Scholar I think I misread the sentiment of your intention.

Have you considered doing a solo retreat to contemplate these matters?

Also, perhaps consider volunteering in an environment with suffering. I volunteered in a psychiatric unit counseling patients for several years which gave me insight into the nature of suffering.

I am thinking about how I could cause suffering to myself but my mind is resisting it, and I don't know how I would do that without damaging myself. I don't think the kind of suffering where I know I am not actually damaging myself is the same as the suffering I would experience if I actually lost something important. I don't have access to psychedelics so that's not an option for me at the moment.

But then I think I can predict the way my mind will react, because I see so many other people who react certain ways, and I know how I reacted in the past. It's just that I don't know what is beyond the reaction that makes suffering somehow bad. But then when I look at the suffering there is something about it that I cannot explain in words that makes it seem like it is bad. I just can't articulate it, but then there is also something that makes it seem like just another experience, that I cannot articulate either.

 

I probably should do a solo retreat.

 

The worst thing about this is though that it seems like suffering is not the same if you are being conscious of it. So when I want to learn about suffering, the learning about it is modifying the suffering in a way that makes it different from someone not being conscious at all and just suffering and being immersed in it completely. So how do I actually investigate it?

Let's say one would want to measure a particle that changes when you measure it, how would one ever get to know what the particle truly is, if the creation of knowledge is modifying it? And to me it seems to be the same way for all experiences, when I focus on them they become a different thing, when I observe them they are not the same thing as the unobserved experience. How do I get past this?

Edited August 31, 2018 by Scholar