Why is suffering bad?

[Scholar]

I have been contemplating morality these past few weeks, I read up on moral philosophy and the more I think about this topic the more confused I get. There are so many positions on this, and it seems like they are almost all linked to suffering. Previously I thought that morality was relative, that it depended on the (mostly sub-conscious) preference of the subject. Like when I say reality should not be a certain way, then I am really saying that I do not want reality to be a certain way, that I have an expectation towards reality to manifest in a particular manner I desire.

For example when I say I do not want someone to be hurt, I say that, even if it is not articulated, because there is an expectation of suffering from the empathy I will feel. It's not just an expectation, but it seems like the idea of that possible manifestation of reality is making me suffering in the moment itself, and my inherent drive to avoid that suffering leads me to choices I make towards alleviating suffering of others.

I have reached a point, just a few moments ago, where I am not sure anymore what suffering actually is. It seemed so self-evident a few minutes ago, but now I just do not understand it anymore. Why is suffering bad? What about the experience of suffering is intrinsically undesirable? Or is suffering itself "undesire"? But what are it's actual qualities? What is truly the difference between suffering and joy? 

 

It was unquestionable for me that suffering for all of eternity was inherently bad, but now I don't even know anymore what that would mean? Like all other experiences it seems to me like it is nothing but a driver for certain behaviors, but why does that matter?

I know I will care about my own suffering, but I do not understand why that even matters? So what that I will suffer and resist reality? I would want to ask why it would be significant, but I am not even sure what significance means anymore.

 

Does anyone have thoughts on this?

Edited August 31, 2018 by Scholar

[Nahm]

@Scholar Take the Joy that we are, fragment it, diminish it,  add overeating, unhealthy food, an ego based society, over stimulation, over thinking, over competing, addictions, denial, and some blame, and it’s suffering.

[here-now]

I think suffering comes from a feeling of being separate/disconnected from all Life, whereas joy comes from being one with/connected to all Life. 

And, amorality comes from that feeling of separation, whereas true morality comes from oneness/connection.

[Leo Gura]

@Scholar Suffering is very easy to contemplate because it is so palpable in your direct experience.

DO NOT think about what suffering is. OBSERVE what suffering is in your direct experience!

You suffer every day. The next time you suffer, OBSERVE it, and contemplate what you are observing.

Avoid speculating or philosophizing about suffering. You don't need to speculate about it, it's RIGHT THERE every day in your life!

P.S. Not only is it there, you are creating it! Another good question to contemplate is: Why did I create this suffering? Again, avoid speculation. Stick as closely to direct experience as possible.

[Privet]

Go immerse yourself in the ice cold water and notice how much you don't like it and how much you want to avoid it.

It's just cold, the sensation of cold on your skin is fundamentally empty of any evaluation, like or dislike. It's you that makes it terrible.

Sensation of cold = pain.

Your aversion towards the cold (pain) and the urge to get back to the warm (pleasure) = suffering.

Edited August 30, 2018 by Privet

[Scholar]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Scholar Suffering is very easy to contemplate because it is so palpable in your direct experience.

DO NOT think about what suffering is. OBSERVE what suffering is in your direct experience!

You suffer every day. The next time you suffer, OBSERVE it, and contemplate what you are observing.

Avoid speculating or philosophizing about suffering. You don't need to speculate about it, it's RIGHT THERE every day in your life!

P.S. Not only is it there, you are creating it! Another good question to contemplate is: Why did I create this suffering? Again, avoid speculation. Stick as closely to direct experience as possible.

That is what I am trying to do and it just confuses me. The more I look at it the more it seems to become vague. I know that I am avoiding suffering, but that seems to happen unconsciously. My question is: If I was fully conscious, why would I avoid suffering and why would I avoid inflicting suffering to other beings? All it seems to do is make me and them act a certain way... I don't see what's intrinsically bad about it anymore.

But even worse, when I focus and try to be conscious of the suffering happening in me it seems like the experience is changing, that the suffering when not observed was different from the suffering that is observed, as if it changes in substance the more I observe it.

But then how am I supposed to truly know what suffering is. How can I know that my suffering that I have become conscious of is the same suffering as for another who has not become conscious of it?

 

Edited August 30, 2018 by Scholar

[NoSelfSelf]

Suffering is attachment to things that cant last...

[Scholar]

2 hours ago, NoSelfSelf said:

Suffering is attachment to things that cant last...

Yes but then why should I not cause suffering to others?

[SOUL]

Pain is what it is, a sensation, suffering is an ongoing and continuing pain but pain is expressed in different ways, such as physical, emotional and psychological. There are a myriad of ways that one may separate themselves from or not experience pain and suffering.

37 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Yes but then why should I not cause suffering to others?

I can't tell you the "why", that's your own path to discover why but I will say if you cause others to suffer eventually others will confine you in a place that you can't cause suffering to 'innocent' others anymore and the prison beatings and rapes will test whether you know what suffering is anymore.

[Scholar]

3 hours ago, SOUL said:

Pain is what it is, a sensation, suffering is an ongoing and continuing pain but pain is expressed in different ways, such as physical, emotional and psychological. There are a myriad of ways that one may separate themselves from or not experience pain and suffering.

I can't tell you the "why", that's your own path to discover why but I will say if you cause others to suffer eventually others will confine you in a place that you can't cause suffering to 'innocent' others anymore and the prison beatings and rapes will test whether you know what suffering is anymore.

That is not true though, I can finance the suffering of billions of beings without ever having to deal with any consequences, so why would I not do so? And why is it important to avoid suffering at all? I know that I will avoid it because I am an ego, but so what? Even if I want it to stop and regret it, why is that a bad thing?

Is the only reason to avoid suffering in others so that I myself don't suffer? And is the only reason why I should avoid my own suffering because I will not like it?

 

I understand that suffering makes me behave and think certain ways, but what is inherently bad about these actions and thoughts, and the suffering itself?

Edited August 30, 2018 by Scholar

[NoSelfSelf]

@Scholar Do you like when someone makes you suffer ? 

[Scholar]

1 minute ago, NoSelfSelf said:

@Scholar Do you like when someone makes you suffer ? 

No, but why does it matter what I like and dislike?

[NoSelfSelf]

@Scholarso if i beat the shit out of you with a bat and leave you in big pain for weeks in a hospital because i like to make others suffer and everyone does it would that be a good place for you to live in?

[Scholar]

Just now, NoSelfSelf said:

@Scholarso if i beat the shit out of you with a bat and leave you in big pain for weeks in a hospital because i like to make others suffer and everyone does it would that be a good place for you to live in?

I don't know if it would be good, I probably would not like it, but I don't understand why that matters? Me not liking something is just another experience, and I know it does not feel that way while I am experiencing it, but that is part of the experience. But why is that actually a bad thing?

[NoSelfSelf]

@Scholar We can go in so many directions with this nothing is good or bad,but its easier to make shitty human experience then good experience and im not sure what you are trying to figure out with this i assume you are trying to justify your actions by saying there is no morality so you can make others suffer for your pleasure...

[Scholar]

6 minutes ago, NoSelfSelf said:

@Scholar We can go in so many directions with this nothing is good or bad,but its easier to make shitty human experience then good experience and im not sure what you are trying to figure out with this i assume you are trying to justify your actions by saying there is no morality so you can make others suffer for your pleasure...

If I wanted to justify making others suffering for my pleasure I would probably not be a vegan. I am just interested in the nature of suffering and what makes it inherently bad, I want to know if there is something metaphysical about it that makes it somehow an experience that should be avoided, but to me it looks like it's just an experience that makes us avoid things, so the other way around. 

[NoSelfSelf]

@Scholar Well thats interesting topic imo suffering helps you to grow and on the other hand it makes your life miserable so i guess its necessary for human experience part of the game to feel ups and downs until you come to freedom well its up to you to say ifs good or bad while in reality nobody cares how you feel or want to hear about it...

[pluto]

Holding onto something or someone that no longer serves you.

[Solace]

Resisting your natural self through your belief system, being grounded in the head instead of the heart, and wanting more to avoid having less!

[Scholar]

I think I have put the wrong question into the topic-header. I am aware of the philosophy behind how suffering is created, what it's purpose is and so on, but I am more curious about the experience of suffering itself and why it should be avoided? What about suffering is inherently undesirable in a way that a fully conscious human should strive to avoid it?

I know that it's unpleasant, that suffering also include absolute terror, but why are these things any different from experiences like joy? I don't really believe in good and evil, but to me it seems like the experience of suffering carries what we would call evil in it because we find it intrinsically undesirable. How is that possible? Why is it that suffering is such an intensely negative experience, and what does that even mean?

It becomes weird because it's kind of like trying to make sense of the experience of colors, I cannot really make any sense of it other than just saying it exists and it is what it is.

Edited August 31, 2018 by Scholar