A few problems with the Clare Graves / Spiral Dynamics model

[Event_Horizon]

Hi all,

First time I watched Leo's video about Spiral Dynamics I liked it a lot, it corresponded well with my experience in growing.

But after talking about it with a friend, he raised up a few problems in the model that I could not explain.

I'm curious about your thoughts on the matter.

1. Sometimes atheists who are presumably orange, become religious(blue), which shouldn't be possible since the model is one directional. Similarly, people who are green can turn orange and start a business and become capitalists, or democrats (who are supposed to be orange-green) can change their political opinion and turn republicans (which is supposed to be orange - blue). 

2. Some people seem to get to stage green for example, without ever passing through stage orange or blue. I know many people who believe in piece, equality, new age spirituality etc, but haven't gone through a achievement and target-driven-personal-development phase like orange is supposed to be.

3. Societies also don't seem to be moving in one direction. example: the US (and probably other countries) seemed to be more hippie (green) in the 60's-70's than in the 80's-90's, where it became more orange, and now it's moving to green again (with the SJW's and all). 

4. Another problem with societies: communist societies are atheistic and very pro-equality, but also authoritarian, so where does it go: blue or green? If it's green then how comes Russia and other used-to-be-communist countries are becoming orange (moving to capitalism)? Also, I've heard many hippies believe in communism so is it blue or green?

 

The only answers I could come up with had to twist the model so much that it could no longer be a valid model.

Disclaimer: Although I've also watched Leo's episodes about orange, green and yellow (and half of blue) , I did not read the Spiral Dynamics book so perhaps my understanding of the model isn't good enough.

 

Edited August 28, 2018 by Event_Horizon

[Leo Gura]

SD is a complex model which requires serious study and contemplation to understand fully.

All of these issues you brought are up only apparent issue because you haven't fully understood the model yet and you are not quite properly interpreting history. For example America was not more Green in the 60's than today. That is confusing the hippie movement with the average level of the entire country. In the 60's America was heavy Blue/Orange.

Atheists are not Blue, they are just stubbornly Orange.

Each stage builds on all the prior ones, so there is no contradiction in a Green or even Turquoise person starting a business. Business takes place at every stage, just following different values.

[Event_Horizon]

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Atheists are not Blue, they are just stubbornly Orange.

That's my point, they are orange but sometimes they become religious. Does that mean they turn blue again?

Anyway I will read Spiral Dynamics after I finish Thinking in Systems.

[Elisabeth]

IMHO

1) An atheist who adopts the belief in god will usually not do it with the same 'one and only true way' attitude as a person who's been truly raised in blue. It's more of an orange (moving-towards-greenish) search for spirituality.

2) Some people can be raised in a Green family already. Or, they could have gone through blue and orange in an age-appropriate way, being nice obedient kids (blue) when they are six and the rebelious teenager (orange) when they are 13. You can get to green early on.

4) Communist societies are not really pro equality. You can't realize the get the green idea of equality using violence. Communism as a totalitarian regimen in Europe was a blue-red backlash in an otherwise blue-orange society. The fact that they adopted atheism into their ideology doesn't make communism fully orange. Hippies don't believe in communism, they believe in community.

[Ella Mentry]

Event_Horizon, those are good questions, particularly about the directionality of development.

If you look at Spiral Dynamics by Beck and Cowan, they explain that the vMemes emerge in response to life conditions and that it is not necessarily a one-way progression up the spiral. Someone who is a hippie in their youth can become a capitalist given certain conditions. 

Evolution in general and the evolution of consciousness in particular (as explained by Spiral Dynamics) proceeds in the direction of less complex to more complex. However, individuals, companies and countries can devolve. This can happen to a country during war or after a natural disaster. A highly evolved individual can return to Beige after a head injury.

As regards to point 2, a lot of this development as part of normal childhood development so it may not seem quite as obvious. But I think it's accurate to say that all individuals go through each stage before reaching the next.

[Geromekevin]

"All models are wrong, but some are useful."

There are people who are going back on the spiral. As with everything, don't confuse SD (= the map) with reality (= the territory).

[Toby]

I don't really remember exactly because it's a couple of years ago I read the book but weren't there examples of fictional people where some "regressed" to show that it is not "one directional"?

[DnoReally]

8 hours ago, Event_Horizon said:

3. Societies also don't seem to be moving in one direction. example: the US (and probably other countries) seemed to be more hippie (green) in the 60's-70's than in the 80's-90's, where it became more orange, and now it's moving to green again (with the SJW's and all). 

With this specific point I recommend you look up what Ken Wilber refers to as "Boomeritis". Basically, most of the 60-70 counter culture people turn out to be deeply blue just following an actually much smaller green "mob".

Edited August 28, 2018 by DnoReally

[thehero]

7 hours ago, Elisabeth said:

1) An atheist who adopts the belief in god will usually not do it with the same 'one and only true way' attitude as a person who's been truly raised in blue. It's more of an orange (moving-towards-greenish) search for spirituality.

 

whoa... this is me... i thought I was regressing to blue

[Event_Horizon]

Thanks for the answers everyone, they did clear things up a bit for me, I will read the book to learn more about it.