One big question for gurus

[Jack River]

1 minute ago, robdl said:

Fear and its many subtle forms --- belief, assumptions, conclusions, knowledge, concepts-abstractions, etc.  All thought-self posing resistance, self-sustaining.

Yep

[Jack River]

I’m just thrilled to see it dude. Seriously man It’s realy a miracle to me. 

Edited August 28, 2018 by Jack River

[SOUL]

22 minutes ago, robdl said:

I'm not talking about outward chronological time, of the clock, of the calendar.  

I'm talking about inner psychological time, that recollects the past, and projects the future.   There is no distinction between this psychological time and the "perceiver" of it.  They are a single, unitary movement.

This is still more complicated than I prefer to discuss but I will address this as simply as I can

Cosmological time gave rise to all the natural processes that brought about our psychology of mind. The future and past exists apart from even the mind's perception of it, or psychological time as you call it.

Within our consciousness we have more than one point of perspective we can be aware of. Our self conscious creates one that orients identity, this is the one you are referring to and yes, it does appear to be a single entity by it's very nature. From that which it perceives, this 'perceiver' creates it's basis of identity so is one with that experience.

Though, within our consciousness there is another point of perception in awareness that is distinct from the point of perception in self conscious. That this takes place in a whole experience of consciousness it can be a challenge to recognize this distinction but once one is aware of it the clarity in consciousness can untangle identity simply.

There is even a primitive point of perception in 'physiology' that the point of perception in self conscious uses primal experience to create it's identity and once one observes from the point of perception in awareness will the distinction between those other two become apparent even though it appears as a single entity in nature without it.

I prefer to not get this complicated since just being present in the moment transcends all this conceptualization.

[SOUL]

49 minutes ago, Jack River said:

@SOUL

Cant understand what @robdl and @Facelessare saying if we are to scared to listen to them. Fear prevents it for sure. Not saying you are scared. But from what I see a lot here on the forum and the last 8years of my life, fear seems to prevent this big insight from sinking in. 

Nah, I'm at peace.

[Jack River]

1 minute ago, SOUL said:

Nah, I'm at peace.

Cool dude.

I know man. It’s confusing stuff for sure. 

[robdl]

8 minutes ago, SOUL said:

This is still more complicated than I prefer to discuss but I will address this as simply as I can

Cosmological time gave rise to all the natural processes that brought about our psychology of mind. The future and past exists apart from even the mind's perception of it, or psychological time as you call it.

Within our consciousness we have more than one point of perspective we can be aware of. Our self conscious creates one that orients identity, this is the one you are referring to and yes, it does appear to be a single entity by it's very nature. From that which it perceives, this 'perceiver' creates it's basis of identity so is one with that experience.

Though, within our consciousness there is another point of perception in awareness that is distinct from the point of perception in self conscious. That this takes place in a whole experience of consciousness it can be a challenge to recognize this distinction but once one is aware of it the clarity in consciousness can untangle identity simply.

There is even a primitive point of perception in 'physiology' that the point of perception in self conscious uses primal experience to create it's identity and once one observes from the point of perception in awareness will the distinction between those other two become apparent even though it appears as a single entity in nature without it.

I prefer to not get this complicated since just being present in the moment transcends all this conceptualization.

To me there is no complication or conceptualization; no abstraction or theory.  That is all intellectual; thought-knowledge.

There is just the holistic seeing-insight of the fact of the single, unitary thought-self loop; how it (falsely) divides observer/thinker/perceiver from observed/thoughts/time.

[Jack River]

3 minutes ago, robdl said:

That is all intellectual; thought-knowledge.

Right. 

 

19 minutes ago, SOUL said:

This is still more complicated than I prefer to discuss but I will address this as simply as I can

Cosmological time gave rise to all the natural processes that brought about our psychology of mind. The future and past exists apart from even the mind's perception of it, or psychological time as you call it.

Within our consciousness we have more than one point of perspective we can be aware of. Our self conscious creates one that orients identity, this is the one you are referring to and yes, it does appear to be a single entity by it's very nature. From that which it perceives, this 'perceiver' creates it's basis of identity so is one with that experience.

Though, within our consciousness there is another point of perception in awareness that is distinct from the point of perception in self conscious. That this takes place in a whole experience of consciousness it can be a challenge to recognize this distinction but once one is aware of it the clarity in consciousness can untangle identity simply.

There is even a primitive point of perception in 'physiology' that the point of perception in self conscious uses primal experience to create it's identity and once one observes from the point of perception in awareness will the distinction between those other two become apparent even though it appears as a single entity in nature without it.

I prefer to not get this complicated since just being present in the moment transcends all this conceptualization.

This seems to be conceptualization. 

What we are taking about can be watched without any past knowledge or speculation for sure. 

[SOUL]

5 minutes ago, robdl said:

To me there is no complication or conceptualization; no abstraction or theory.  That is all intellectual; thought-knowledge.

There is just the holistic seeing-insight of the fact of the single, unitary thought-self loop; how it (falsely) divides observer/thinker/perceiver from observed/thoughts/time.

Sure, whatever you want to believe, have at it. Peace.

[robdl]

2 minutes ago, SOUL said:

Sure, whatever you want to believe, have at it. Peace.

Belief is a movement of fear; thought-self seeking security in abstraction.   I'm talking about the direct seeing of the whole action of thought-self.

Until that is seen, what I'm talking about will be met with confusion, partial intellectual understanding, or dismissiveness.

 

[Jack River]

3 minutes ago, SOUL said:

Sure, whatever you want to believe

Funny thing is belief is obvious in your post. I would not have been able see it until couple days ago though 

[SOUL]

2 minutes ago, Jack River said:

This seems to be conceptualization. 

What we are taking about can be watched without any past knowledge or speculation for sure. 

It sure is, it's all conceptualization when we are discussing like this, even when people claim it isn't or they aren't. Once we open our mouth to speak our experience we have already conceptualized it in our mind.

I just prefer to simplify the ideology of mind and the path in life by just being present in the moment. It's just another way of expressing what you said in bold. There is a sense of joy, fulfillment and peace in it....and it's instantaneous.

[SOUL]

9 minutes ago, Jack River said:

Funny thing is belief is obvious in your post. I would not have been able see it until couple days ago though 

Everyone has belief whether they know they do or not or deny they do. @robdl

Edited August 28, 2018 by SOUL

[Jack River]

6 minutes ago, SOUL said:

It sure is, it's all conceptualization when we are discussing like this, even when people claim it isn't or they aren't. Once we open our mouth to speak our experience we have already conceptualized it in our mind.

Well that’s just because we are using thinking. But we are not talking about that really brah. 

 

6 minutes ago, SOUL said:

I just prefer to simplify the ideology of mind and the path in life by just being present in the moment. It's just another way of expressing what you said in bold. There is a sense of joy, fulfillment and peace in it....and it's instantaneous.

I think the mind is way to complex to  just say be present in the moment. I listened to that type of talk years man. It doesnt bring about an actual ending of conflict and fear. 

Edited August 28, 2018 by Jack River

[Jack River]

4 minutes ago, SOUL said:

Everyone has belief whether they know they do or not or deny they do.

Psychological dependence on time that makes for a clinging to ideas or concepts. Or as robdl says clinging to ourselves..Nah dude. None of that here my man not anymore

Edited August 28, 2018 by Jack River

[SOUL]

Just now, Jack River said:

Psychological dependence on time that makes for a clinging to ideas or concepts. Or as robdl says clinging to ourselves..Nah dude. None of that here my man

So you believe you don't have any beliefs.... yep, there's alot of that going around.

[robdl]

Can we see the whole movement of thought-self and how "I" nourishes belief, and belief nourishes "I"?  They are co-feeding/co-reacting, within a unitary movement of thought-self.  The seeing of this is not a belief, but meta to any/all belief systems.

[Jack River]

Belief being fear causing me to cling to the illusion of psychological becoming. Divided action or fragmentation as faceless says. 

[SOUL]

8 minutes ago, Jack River said:

I think the mind is way to complex to  just say be present in the moment. I listened to that type of talk years man. It doesnt bring about an actual ending of conflict and fear. 

Years of complex spiritualist concept talk won't accomplish what meditating on being present in the moment does and that is where the joy, fulfillment and peace will be found. Maybe if you stopped talking about it and start being present it might change your experience and  perspective.

[robdl]

12 minutes ago, Jack River said:

Well that’s just because we are using thinking. But we are not talking about that really brah. 

 

I think the mind is way to complex to  just say be present in the moment. I listened to that type of talk years man. It doesnt bring about an actual ending of conflict and fear. 

Quite so.  "Be present in the moment" becomes a kind of belief/mantra for many; a notion to seek refuge in.

[Jack River]

5 minutes ago, SOUL said:

Years of complex spiritualist concept talk won't accomplish what meditating on being present in the moment does and that is where the joy, fulfillment and peace will be found. Maybe if you stopped talking about it and start being present it might change your experience and  perspective.

I’m not saying I have a lot of knowledge dude. Just saying I fell for that trap. It bogus. I’m not in it for perspective dude. Perspective is partial. No experience is where it’s at brah. 

Edited August 28, 2018 by Jack River