One big question for gurus

[riplo]

It seems like almost no popular gurus (other than Leo) talk about the massive levels of discipline and hard work that goes into enlightening oneself. For example Eckhart Tolle's books make no mention at all of a serious spiritual practise. I know that a lot of these people became enlightened by accident almost, and also that when one becomes enlightened you discover that there's 'nothing to do'. Even then though, people like Adyashanti don't really stress how much work is required, even though it seems he had to do a lot of it. 

Why is this? I mean surely these people would love others enough to tell them straight up how to actually get there - as well as being aligned with truth in general, so they'd want to talk truthfully. I guess maybe it's to not discourage egos from listening to their teachings - but even that seems like a manipulative thing to do. 

 

[SoonHei]

20 minutes ago, riplo said:

Eckhart Tolle's books make no mention at all of a serious spiritual practise. I know that a lot of these people became enlightened by accident almost, and also that when one becomes enlightened you discover that there's 'nothing to do'. Even then though, people like Adyashanti don't really stress how much work is required, even though it seems he had to do a lot of it. 

i agreee

eckhart's was spontaneous..

 

i think depending on the teacher, and what their path was like... it is all reflected in their teaching

 

also i think that a lof of the gurus refer to the simplicity of seeing thru the illusion

but it's only really AFTER the fact that they say this

i dont think they are deliousion, far from it lol - i dont even need to say this but

when they say, or eckhart says IT IS HERE NOW! just NOW. simply NOW

it's easy for them to see it as they are speaking from that place of NOW

vs the rest of us could be a billion miles away from the NOW (billion mental illusory miles) 

but yeah. i agree with you.

the work that needs to be put in is massive

it's no easy task

especially since it is a sub-task for most of us, unless we can , like Leo, work towards making a life purpose in which we end up working in this field of study and making a living to be able to continue to do this work and not worry about paying the bills

 

my goal personally is somehow winnging the lotto (using mind/law of attraction/positive vibes to get that lol) and then after lotto, meditate away and enjoy and go deeper into it

 

i am not after the money (or so i think now, hopefully i wont change after getting the money) but yeah. i am after the freedom which money will give me which allows me to do this work uninterrupted or worrying

a guru would tell me here, i am just setting up this obstacle for myself to delay the work which needs to be done. but from my full time work job which i very much need if i need to survive on the month-month bills i got. i cant bring myself to full dive into it... and the next thing i know is i have lost my mind and cannot work anymore and then lose my house/job/car

 

lotto > freedom > eventual enlightment

 

LETS GET THAT MONEY SO IT CAN GET ME ENLIGHTMENT SO THEN I CAN LOOK BACK AS ALL AWAKENED SOULS DO AND GO LIKE WOOAH. WAS "I" A CRAZY LIL NUT OR WAAT?

[Prabhaker]

22 minutes ago, riplo said:

It seems like almost no popular gurus (other than Leo) talk about the massive levels of discipline and hard work that goes into enlightening oneself.

Almost all Indian gurus hint that achieving full enlightenment is next to impossible and a spiritual journey can be completed in many lives. Western spiritual teachers speak politically correct language about enlightenment.

[robdl]

1 hour ago, riplo said:

It seems like almost no popular gurus (other than Leo) talk about the massive levels of discipline and hard work that goes into enlightening oneself. For example Eckhart Tolle's books make no mention at all of a serious spiritual practise. I know that a lot of these people became enlightened by accident almost, and also that when one becomes enlightened you discover that there's 'nothing to do'. Even then though, people like Adyashanti don't really stress how much work is required, even though it seems he had to do a lot of it. 

Why is this? I mean surely these people would love others enough to tell them straight up how to actually get there - as well as being aligned with truth in general, so they'd want to talk truthfully. I guess maybe it's to not discourage egos from listening to their teachings - but even that seems like a manipulative thing to do. 

 

The ego is cunning.  It will use even the seeking-will-effort you mentioned to sustain/perpetuate its own movement-survival; to perpetuate the "striver-seeker." The ego mind "thinks" that it can set out to kill thought, but sneakily ego's sole interest is to perpetuate it. 

Gurus are well-aware of this cunning nature of ego-mind, and therefore don't intend to nourish it by feeding the "seeker-striver."

 

Edited August 27, 2018 by robdl

[iamme]

3 hours ago, Prabhaker said:

Almost all Indian gurus hint that achieving full enlightenment is next to impossible and a spiritual journey can be completed in many lives. Western spiritual teachers speak politically correct language about enlightenment.

 

Good post. 

It took Eckhart Tolle one year of contemplating on a park bench, it took Nisargadatta 3 years after focusing on a mantra his guru gave him, it took Lester Levenson 3 months after doing intense self inquiry & let go. You should read Lester's story or even better listen to him telling it, very inspiring. 

Anyway, all these people were enlightened enough. 

The point is that whatever you believe might become true for you. Like, if you think it should take you many lifetimes, you might prove yourself correct

[Arkandeus]

in my opinion it is related to the nature of life, enlightenment is realizing that the nature of life is magical

 

How do I get a yummy cake?

Earthly mind : I gather the ingredients, I bake the cake, and so I get my yummy cake!

Enlightened mind : I get my yummy cake

 

enlightenment is simple really, you get what you want

Does working hard and being disciplined make you happy? does it satisfy, fill you up with the magic and wonder of life, with the freedom and magnificence of life?

I'm going to make a personal assumption that that is not the case

you do not get peace by going to war for peace,  nor do you get happiness by forging yourself through some tough journey

you root for what you want now, in this moment, you want peace, be peaceful, you want freedom, be free in the way that you can right now, you want happiness, be happy in the way that is possible right now, even if its small happiness, a small ember, if you want enlightenment you must see what enlightenment means for you right now in this present moment

demand to be enlightened right now, with life as it is

do not gather ingredients, do not bake, just get your yummy cake

how? it is magic, there is no reason to provide the logical mind

 

and when it hits you that this is how easy it is, come the waves of excitement, infinity, wonder, the ocean of life is felt, unlimited,when you get that it is really this easy, infinite love

Edited August 27, 2018 by Arkandeus

[Haumea2018]

I can give you my take based on my experience.

It's really difficult to make blanket statements.

It's a case-by-case thing.

A lot of it has to do with the work already done upto this point, in previous lives and this one.

And not necessarily formal sadhana either.  Sometimes suffering and hardship is sadhana enough.

And since no-one knows your whole story, you shouldn't listen to generic messages aimed at the average about how long it's going to take.  It may only stop you from seeing opportunities to get there faster.  It may be a realistic message for some, and a form of negative conditioning for others.

So don't fill your head with a lot of preconceptions about what and how long it's going to take.  It can happen much faster than what is the conventional wisdom about it.

 

 

[SOUL]

It's the eons of natural world experience that has evolved manifesting in the mind with an ingrained subconscious ideology that one needs to sacrifice to attain. Transcending the self conditioning in our mind by just 'being present' is ultimately what we seek as the spontaneous expression of awareness in consciousness.

[Emerald]

Having an ethic of hard work is a double edged sword when it comes to the enlightenment seeking process. Ideally, you'd have enough work ethic and tenacity to actually do the inner work. But you'd also have enough ability to let go of work ethic and tenacity once they become a hinderance. I think that most enlightened people know this, and see the fact that having a strong work ethic can actually work against the ability to experience ego transcendence. 

[Leo Gura]

Because no one would buy it if it said, "You gotta do 10,000 hours of work".

People want easy answers. That is what sells.

The popularity of your product/service in the marketplace is directly proportional to how easy and effortless you make your solution sound.

"Enlightenment In 15 Minutes" << That's the video every fool clicks on.

The most serious teachers, who emphasize hard work, are the ones you'll never hear of because they are not mass market.

See my video: The Deep Problem of Marketing.

To sell enlightenment effectively, you gotta simplify it and dumb it down to the point that hardly anyone who listens to you will ever attain it.

If a guru told you what enlightenment really is, no one would buy it.

[molosku]

If you teach "there is nothing to do" it will naturally guide the student to do spiritual practise. They may try the teachers "dont worry about it man" technique, only to realize that it is not working and they are left with only one option: take action. 

[Leo Gura]

15 minutes ago, Outer said:

Just like Jed speaking of truth and existence when he means absolute truth and what exists absolutely.

I'm actually surprised at how successful Jed's books have been.

He sort of bucks the trend.

Although of course most people reading his books have no idea what he's really pointing to, or ever do the practice he suggests. He sort of obscures the practice with all his smartassery and story-telling.

Jed's work is sort of a cult classic.

[Haumea2018]

Quote

Because no one would buy it if it said, "You gotta do 10,000 hours of work".

Of course the flip side of selling fast enlightenment is "what's the catch?" and "too good to be true."

 

[cirkussmile]

If someone inspires another they will start to investigate themselves. Which is exactly what is needed. No Guru can liberate you. You have to liberate yourself. 

[Nahm]

@riplo Whatever it takes for finite to realize infinite, and once realized, near impossible to see as finite again.

What will it take for you?

What teacher / method naturally resonates for you?

 

[riplo]

@Nahm That's a good question. Just reading Eckhart's books puts me into a meditative loving state, but it's the kind of thing you read and then just forget about a week later. Leo's videos tend to either motivate me to action or just freak me tf out. I don't really know what resonates for me really - I've still got to explore more n get them juicy multiple perspectives. 

[riplo]

15 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Because no one would buy it if it said, "You gotta do 10,000 hours of work".

People want easy answers. That is what sells.

The popularity of your product/service in the marketplace is directly proportional to how easy and effortless you make your solution sound.

"Enlightenment In 15 Minutes" << That's the video every fool clicks on.

The most serious teachers, who emphasize hard work, are the ones you'll never hear of because they are not mass market.

See my video: The Deep Problem of Marketing.

To sell enlightenment effectively, you gotta simplify it and dumb it down to the point that hardly anyone who listens to you will ever attain it.

If a guru told you what enlightenment really is, no one would buy it.

I wonder though if these mass market gurus actually know that they are doing this. Like do they deliberately sit down and think they're going to dumb it down to make it spread? Seems pretty manipulative - although I guess what's wrong with that if it's done from a place of love.

 

[Nahm]

@riplo Sweet. Sounds like you resonate with both quite well. ❤️

[MiracleMan]

From "I am That" by Nisargadata Maharaj.

 

"Q: Sir, I am an humble seeker, wandering from Guru to Guru in search of 
release. My mind is sick, burning with desire, frozen with fear. My days flit by, red 
with pain, grey with boredom. My age is advancing, my health decaying, my future 
dark and frightening. At this rate I shall live in sorrow and die in despair. Is there 
any hope for me? Or have I come too late? 

M: Nothing is wrong with you, but the ideas you have of yourself are 
altogether wrong. It is not you who desires, fears and suffers, it is the person built on 
the foundation of your body by circumstances and influences. You are not that 
person. This must be clearly established in your mind and never lost sight of. 
Normally, it needs a prolonged sadhana, years of austerities and meditation. 

Q: My mind is weak and vacillating. I have neither the strength nor the 
tenacity for sadhana. My case, is hopeless. 

M: In a way yours is a most hopeful case. There is an alternative to 
sadhana, which is trust. If you cannot have the conviction born from fruitful search, 
then take advantage of my discovery, which I am so eager to share with you. I can 
see with the utmost clarity that you have never been, nor are, nor will be estranged 
from realty, that you are the fullness of perfection here and now and that nothing can 
deprive you of your heritage, of what you are. You are in no way different from me, 
only you do not know it. You do not know what you are and therefore you imagine 
your self to be what you are not. Hence desires and fear and overwhelming despair. 
And meaningless activity in order to escape. 
Just trust me and live by trusting me. I shall not mislead you. You are the 
Supreme Reality beyond the world and its creator, beyond consciousness and its 
witness, beyond all assertions and denials. Remember it, think of it, act on it. 
Abandon all sense of separation, see yourself in all and act accordingly. With action 
bliss will come and, with bliss, conviction. (...)Just catch hold of what I told you and 
live by it."

There is so much to say about this movement of "doing" and thousands of hours of meditation.  It's called Spiritual Materialism.

10,000 hours of meditation may work, and it may not.  If you believe you have free will, use it however you like.

I know for a fact that I can't become what I already am through effort, and I'm at peace with that.

When I meditate, it comes naturally, and is never forced.  If I dont feel like it, I never fight myself.  It just works for me and I get results through daily awareness and faith.  I still meditate and self inquire, but it isnt necessary to force it.  The interest WILL arise and get stronger.  That is when meditation is serving your highest self.

God speed my friend, may you awaken NOW.  May you find God NOW.

 

 

 

Edited August 28, 2018 by MiracleMan
Clairty

[SOUL]

Awakening takes no time, it's instantaneous and in fact, the prospect of time may actually hinder the seeker. It is simple, which isn't to suggest it's easy but it is simplicity in nature which can be difficult to manifest in practice.

Awakening is like sitting on the highest mountain seeing the landscape all around from a vantage that cannot be paralleled, it doesn't take any effort to be viewing the world from that spot on top of the mountain. The 'work' is climbing the mountain, it is a challenge and is on the way to the perspective sought but isn't it in itself.

All the methods and techniques filling books and seminars are teaching the climb but that mountain top perspective is always available in the present moment to our awareness seated at the top of the mountain in our consciousness.

Edited August 28, 2018 by SOUL
grammar