Veganism a sham?

[AMS]

Hey guys, here I have a recent 2018 study which tells how plant agriculture is responsible for a significant amount of animal deaths.  On page 6 of the study it estimates that in the U.S 7.3 billion animals are killed by plant agriculture each year.  In the meat industry there are 40 million cattle plus 120 million pigs and roughly 9 billion broiler chickens slaughtered. 

If this study is accurate then in terms of morality at least then global veganism is not much more favorable than to stay on meat-based diets. 

Pretty shocking info imo!

Page 1 and also whole study PDF attached:

 

fischer2018.pdf

[Emerald]

That might be true if most agriculture wasn't done for sole the purpose of feeding the animals we eat... 7.3 billion animals is a lot of mouths to feed, especially when 160 million of them are cows and pigs. That's half the U.S. population, but cows and pigs eat WAY more crops than we could ever dream of eating. Not to mention the chickens and other farm animals that are slaughtered that are also fed crops. 

So, either way you slice it, Veganism cuts down significantly on the suffering of animals... not only because of not slaughtering them... but because we could cut back on agriculture that might harm animals in the process. 

[AMS]

Yep I get what you're saying but I read in a book 'The Vegetarian Myth' that the only reason we have factory farming in the first place is because we have an excess of grain (because it is too simple for us to mass produce) and therefore it is another way for us to profit by having animals to exploit and also eat.  Maybe eating more pastured animals would be better in the long run but yeah it is a very complex debate and interesting to see still not as black and white as some think.

Edited August 27, 2018 by AMS

[RabbitHole]

I won't argue as It triggers my vegan senses, but please use the most basic common sense and figure out what you actually just wrote. Do you know that we would be growing waaaay less plants If we didn't feed like 90% to farming animals? And was there any fact in that study? It just says "we know".

Well I know that the one who wrote that is complete retard. "Field animal death may be reduced or eliminated", but we will still breed animals to use for consumption. I think anyone with decently working brain understands It non-sense.

I think this doesn't even need any analyzing, If you can count to 10 (in right order from 1 to 10), then you can figure out that this post is crap and that study too.

[RawJudah]

I find vegans too aggressive and they give off the whole attitude of ‘if you aren’t vegan then I don’t like you’ and it comes across wrong for me. 

They say they are healthy but they look anything but. Most of them look like they are starving (which they probably are)

sorry if this offends anyone who is vegan, but we’re all here for truth...

[RabbitHole]

22 minutes ago, RawJudah said:

I find vegans too aggressive and they give off the whole attitude of ‘if you aren’t vegan then I don’t like you’ and it comes across wrong for me. 

They say they are healthy but they look anything but. Most of them look like they are starving (which they probably are)

sorry if this offends anyone who is vegan, but we’re all here for truth...

Most of vegans are actually super nice and friendly (as many went vegan for ethical reasons, they tend to be more compassionate and nice in general). I care less about feels etc. so I might sound agressive, in real life I talk about It only to those who are genuinely interested, wan't to argue, but you have no idea what you're talking about? Fuck off, research on your own, because It really sucks to argue with peole who have never done any research and argue with shit like "But protein..", "Weak vegans", "Yeah, I care, but won't go vegan". I've got no time for fools like these.

Every vegan I know is healthy as fuck and also working out regularly etc. Starving ones might be those who are too lazy to research and rush in transition, because you shouldn't go vegan overnight, more like over 1-2 months period until your body adjusts and you figure out what to eat. 

I have never been in better shape than I am now, I am training for triathlon and ultra marathons, which means extremely endurance and strength demanding training every single day, also It needs around 5000 calories to keep this routine, If I was starving or lacking nutrients I could never sustain this as I burn 2000+ calories per training session, that's not including minimum 2500 needed just to survive decently. 

There is no better diet and will never be, but what is really important and most people lack is research, you must research how It works and when you do (assuming you can proccess such simple information), you will agree with me.

[Emerald]

11 hours ago, AMS said:

Yep I get what you're saying but I read in a book 'The Vegetarian Myth' that the only reason we have factory farming in the first place is because we have an excess of grain (because it is too simple for us to mass produce) and therefore it is another way for us to profit by having animals to exploit and also eat.  Maybe eating more pastured animals would be better in the long run but yeah it is a very complex debate and interesting to see still not as black and white as some think.

If we have an excess of grain, then the solution is for farmers to stop planting as much grain... which they would already do if it weren't profitable for them to plant more due to the high demand for cheap animal food. It doesn't make sense to say that we should raise more animals to eat that grain to be slaughtered. The reason why we're planting so much grain is not an accident. It's because grain is in high demand for feeding humans, the animals we eat, and sometimes for fuel and other things like that. 

So, I don't really think that this particular issue is very complicated like you said. It seems quite simple. Unless of course, there's some angle that I'm not considering. It seems like cutting down on breeding animals for slaughter would also cut down on the need for so much grain to be produced and harvested, thus eliminating a large portion of field deaths as well as the deaths that come from the slaughter of animals in the factory farming industry. I really don't see a downside to Veganism here. 

Now, off course, society is not ready yet to give up animal agriculture because lab-grown meat (dairy and eggs as well) is not widespread yet. But Vegans, Vegetarians, Reducitarains, Pescatarians, Flexatarians, and others that are cutting back meat and dairy consumption are creating a growing demand for such innovations and taking small chips out of the profits of the meat and dairy industry. 

[Scholar]

Don't you think you might have fallen victim to confirmation-bias? It is in my opinion telling when people stop their research right at the point when some evidence presented seems to confirm their preferred narrative. You could have easily made a google search and realized how absurd your train of thought in this particular instance is, do you not think that your mind is trying to skew reality to fit it's own interests?

 

 

[AMS]

I just wanted to share another perspective, didn't necessarily say this means to stop doing any further research.  I just feel usually it is the other way around, it is an automatic assumption that Veganism kills far less animals (some people think hardly any at all) as it happens behind the scenes, is best for the environment and is healthy by default for everyone (which is just not the case).

I feel like there is another angle but it is hard for me to explain it, I will have to read the book 'The Vegetarian Myth' again to grasp it.

I just did a google search and found a podcast released by the author...just last night actually so could be interesting (and challenging) if anyone wants to listen.
Definitely a new perspective for many listed here:

http://drbretscher.libsyn.com/lccp-039-lierre-keith-the-dark-truths-behind-veganism-vegetarianism
 

This week, the Author of The Vegetarian Myth: Food, Justice, and Sustainability, Lierre Keith, joins me to dispel the three pillars vegetarians lean on to justify their dietary and lifestyle choices. Her book, published in 2009, is still widely discussed and referenced today. In this stirring discussion, Lierre reveals that just six corporations (who she calls grain cartels) own the world’s food supply and how they deceitfully market industrial by-products in the form of soy-based products, how global warming is NOT caused primarily by ruminants but rather by large-scale agricultural practices, and how modern agriculture is destroying our topsoil and our land in general. But she doesn’t stop there! She goes on to explain how proper use of grazing ruminants could actually be a solution to or environmental problems. That’s a message we all need to hear!.

 

What makes her story even more amazing is that Lierre was a practicing vegan for years. Luckily she realized she was slowly destroying her body by not consuming the vital nutrients necessary for good health. So, will going Vegan save your life and save the planet as is so widely believed? Listen to this podcast before you answer that question.

 

Key Takeaways:

 

[4:27] Why Lierre chose to go vegan.

[6:44] How the grain cartel used deceptive marketing to sell the industrial by-product of soy.

[12:01] The cult-like elements of Veganism.

[17:00] Will Veganism save the environment?

[26:21] Moving away from government subsidies and towards grass-based farms.

[32:13] Lierre describes the carbon sequestering process of soil and how global warming started.

[42:44] Lierre shares the moral dilemma brought about by her personal gardening experience.

 

[AMS]

3 hours ago, Emerald said:

If we have an excess of grain, then the solution is for farmers to stop planting as much grain... which they would already do if it weren't profitable for them to plant more due to the high demand for cheap animal food. It doesn't make sense to say that we should raise more animals to eat that grain to be slaughtered. The reason why we're planting so much grain is not an accident. It's because grain is in high demand for feeding humans, the animals we eat, and sometimes for fuel and other things like that. 

So, I don't really think that this particular issue is very complicated like you said. It seems quite simple. Unless of course, there's some angle that I'm not considering. It seems like cutting down on breeding animals for slaughter would also cut down on the need for so much grain to be produced and harvested, thus eliminating a large portion of field deaths as well as the deaths that come from the slaughter of animals in the factory farming industry. I really don't see a downside to Veganism here. 

Now, off course, society is not ready yet to give up animal agriculture because lab-grown meat (dairy and eggs as well) is not widespread yet. But Vegans, Vegetarians, Reducitarains, Pescatarians, Flexatarians, and others that are cutting back meat and dairy consumption are creating a growing demand for such innovations and taking small chips out of the profits of the meat and dairy industry. 

The farmers get fucked over in this process as well I remember reading, by the 'Grain Cartels' (the companies that own all the grain).

[RabbitHole]

Ooh, man, I truly hope you don't believe in "it is an automatic assumption that Veganism kills far less animals (some people think hardly any at all)".

I honestly don't care what your diet is as we all will experience consequences of our actions, but that line just makes me feel bad for people who are into that "study, theory or whatever It is", like come on, does It make sense to you? I can even make up analogy for this as I can't create anything so illogical.

Also realize that animal product industries are working hard to create propoganda that will save them from bankrupcy.

[AMS]

Btw I am a member of a carnivore group, I have eaten as a carnivore for 16 months recovering from a digestive illness.  I sit in a facebook group of 20,000+ doing the same (some of them on this WOE for 10, 15, 20 years) and I can tell you that thousands are coming from a vegan background.  The thing with veganism (for some, not saying all) is that they may feel good to begin with coming off the SAD however in the long term their bodies aren't getting what they need and some of them will notice this drastically, maybe others can appear to thrive from veganism but I feel these are the lucky ones.  Maybe you could ask if it would be the same as a carnivore but what we have found (albeit mostly anecdotal for now) is that humans can survive merely from meat as the body operates in a completely different way and certain levels of nutrients are no longer needed (less Vit C needed due to ingesting less glucose as they share a pathway for example).  Also the body can create the amount of glucose necessary for optimal function by eating fat and protein only and there is actually no such thing as an essential carbohydrate in the diet.

Once again just sharing another perspective with you, that's the aim of this post, it's to open eyes a bit and at least start asking more questions.




 

[Emerald]

4 minutes ago, AMS said:

The farmers get fucked over in this process as well I remember reading, by the 'Grain Cartels' (the companies that own all the grain).

All the more reason to go Vegan and take a small chip out of the Grain Cartels' profits. 

[now is forever]

want to share yet another perspective on veganism. what if it’s the animal proteins that makes us sick? 

this topic here feels a little like yet another rant against veganism. because that’s how it works as long as we are still meat eaters. we find pros and cons and try to understand why the meat industry works like that, instead of finding a real solution to feed the world, trying to cling to a justification.

i realized that only after becoming a vegan for health reasons. i prefere not eating meat to taking cortison - and yes it also resolved the ethical problem at the same time, what feels damn good and takes some clouds away.

so i guess a meat eater could never see the real problems with meat eating because meat is like sugar or coffee or cigarettes just clouding his/her view on the problem. 

what doesn’t resolve the real problem... 

Edited August 28, 2018 by now is forever
strange, a vegan who turns to be a carnivoir, crazy world.

[AMS]

Ok but the book is written by an ex-vegan...maybe check it out.

[Scholar]

14 hours ago, AMS said:

I just wanted to share another perspective, didn't necessarily say this means to stop doing any further research.  I just feel usually it is the other way around, it is an automatic assumption that Veganism kills far less animals (some people think hardly any at all) as it happens behind the scenes, is best for the environment and is healthy by default for everyone (which is just not the case).

I feel like there is another angle but it is hard for me to explain it, I will have to read the book 'The Vegetarian Myth' again to grasp it.

I just did a google search and found a podcast released by the author...just last night actually so could be interesting (and challenging) if anyone wants to listen.
Definitely a new perspective for many listed here:

http://drbretscher.libsyn.com/lccp-039-lierre-keith-the-dark-truths-behind-veganism-vegetarianism
 

This week, the Author of The Vegetarian Myth: Food, Justice, and Sustainability, Lierre Keith, joins me to dispel the three pillars vegetarians lean on to justify their dietary and lifestyle choices. Her book, published in 2009, is still widely discussed and referenced today. In this stirring discussion, Lierre reveals that just six corporations (who she calls grain cartels) own the world’s food supply and how they deceitfully market industrial by-products in the form of soy-based products, how global warming is NOT caused primarily by ruminants but rather by large-scale agricultural practices, and how modern agriculture is destroying our topsoil and our land in general. But she doesn’t stop there! She goes on to explain how proper use of grazing ruminants could actually be a solution to or environmental problems. That’s a message we all need to hear!.

 

What makes her story even more amazing is that Lierre was a practicing vegan for years. Luckily she realized she was slowly destroying her body by not consuming the vital nutrients necessary for good health. So, will going Vegan save your life and save the planet as is so widely believed? Listen to this podcast before you answer that question.

 

Key Takeaways:

 

[4:27] Why Lierre chose to go vegan.

[6:44] How the grain cartel used deceptive marketing to sell the industrial by-product of soy.

[12:01] The cult-like elements of Veganism.

[17:00] Will Veganism save the environment?

[26:21] Moving away from government subsidies and towards grass-based farms.

[32:13] Lierre describes the carbon sequestering process of soil and how global warming started.

[42:44] Lierre shares the moral dilemma brought about by her personal gardening experience.

 

I really do think you are biased, have you ever tried to google something like "Lierre Keith debunked"? If you are open-minded give it a try.

[ajasatya]

the best approach is simply trying it on yourself and observing how you feel after a few months. for me it was an obvious improvement for the two main reasons:

• improved attention... felt more awaken; easier digestion; less anxiety; more balanced sexual drive and better sexual performance; every moment felt lighter and more pleasant
• getting out of the violent food chain was extremely relieving

direct experience is priceless. the academic approach is almost useless.

[AMS]

1 hour ago, Scholar said:

I really do think you are biased, have you ever tried to google something like "Lierre Keith debunked"? If you are open-minded give it a try.

This isn't written by me but made some good points in the comments section of Mic The Vegan's debunked vid.

"There is some misleading stuff in this video and it seems you've completely missed a portion of what she has to say. Before I start, let me preface this by saying that I am not against veg^ns. I care about animals and, like most people, I think factory farming is atrocious (as does Lierre). I am currently in the middle of making my decision between going completely vegetarian vs eating free-range meat. I honestly want to choose what will do the most good for the long-term (not just for myself).

1. The study that compares meat eaters and vegetarians (various types). There are several problems here. The meat eaters can just have a personality where they don't care about their health as much (way more meat eaters drink alcohol than vegans, more vegans care about general health than meat eaters, etc). By the way, that same article links to another article in Britain that shows no difference between the two groups. Maybe the difference has to do with culture more than meat vs vegetarian. Obesity is much higher in the US vs Britain, perhaps the disparity in obesity between meat eaters vs vegetarians is bigger in the US which therefore explains the difference between the two studies? So, what I'm getting at is, perhaps there are things that explain why meat eaters don't live as long as vegetarians that don't require them to become vegetarian in order to fix. For example, eating free-range meat instead of processed meat from McDonald's. You can't simply lump all meat eaters in the same box. By the way, she never said to go from vegan to eating any type of meat. She specifically rules out all factory farmed meats (for health, environmental and ethical reasons) and she eats paleo free-range meats in the first interview you showed. By the way, another major flaw (which she talks about) is that it could be that most people who become vegan and get sick stop being vegan and eat meat again. Therefore, most people who are vegan and healthy are the ones who have the genetics which allow them to eat vegan without any health problems.

2. Many studies show that our enzymes (for most people) are simply not as efficient at accepting vegetarian proteins vs meat proteins.

3. Clearly she's wrong that more vegans get diabetes. Although the results of the study you showed could very well be because vegans are less overweight than meat eaters (9.4 % vs 33.3 %). With that big of a difference, all the publication is saying is that because vegans don't tend to be fat, they are also less likely to have diabetes.

4. You can't talk about factory farming as if Lierre is for it, it's misleading. She advocates for the most humane treatment of animals when farming them. --- Like you said at the end, health is only a portion of what she talks about. However, I think that it is extremely important to consider the other points she talks about if our ultimate goal is to provide a positive net outcome and reduce animal suffering as a whole."




All I know is carnivory is healing my body from a digestive illness (and it was a gradual path needing to go so extreme where my gut got to a point where it can only digest fresh beef) and I know of many people world wide doing the same, some for decades (recovering from serious autoimmune dieseases, obesity and even brain disorders like bipolar, not to mention in thriving health).  It makes you wonder if the scientific studies demonizing meat have gotten it wrong and this was a result of there being too many variables (other dietary factors, lifestyle, consciousness for health) then drawing false conclusions.  Not to mention business corrupting science.  We have noticed that we are not able to digest plants easily due to them having defensive mechanisms (such as chemicals they omit to regulate their survival against grazing herbivores).  Herbivores have very complex digestive systems to break down these chemicals (which maybe humans had in the past but not quite as complex anymore since we started eating more meat)...we lack the high amounts of bacteria and other mechanisms (such as a larger appendix) to breakdown all those plants.  Also these many phytochemicals science knows very little about.  Also fiber is very problematic for some and not as necessary as you may think ('Fiber Menace' book).  Zero carbers do not suffer from constipation, they merely expel less waste. 

But yeah I'm not here to necessarily convince anyone, that's still to come (lots of good studies and movement going on now, check out controversial  youtuber Shawn Baker for example, vegan's love him).  I just want to start sharing with you my perspective because this is clearly helping tens of thousands across the world right now (thousands from a vegan background) and pretty shortly there will be no denying it.  Not saying some aren't thriving as vegans, but it definitely ain't for everyone.  I'd get very sick doing such a diet (believe me if that's what it takes then I'd do it), It seems I can't tolerate plants at all, i haven't cheated in 16 months apart from when i ate small amounts of garlic and onion in a chorizo to get my bacterial overgrowth in my gut more active so my antibiotics would kill them more easily, and I reacted badly to those plants.  Before I started being a carnivore I was eating paleo with a lot of veggies and cutting the veggies helped drastically.  Maybe if you were in my position you would had been more open to such a radical and unconventional/controversial diet as this.




 

Edited August 28, 2018 by AMS

[AMS]

btw for anyone wanting to read some testimonies of health transformation through strict carnivorous eating and open your eyes up then check this site out:

http://meatheals.com/

[ChimpBrain]

1 hour ago, AMS said:

btw for anyone wanting to read some testimonies of health transformation through strict carnivorous eating and open your eyes up then check this site out:

http://meatheals.com/

I can personally testify to this. I'm sure it has everything to do with the foods I removed and not the ones I'm eating, but I've basically eaten 5 foods for the past 6wks; beef, eggs, chicken, almond butter, and coconut oil, and it's drastically reduced my insomnia, acne, joint pain, gas/bloating, and also anxiety but to a lesser degree than the others. I'm slowly starting to work other foods in now. I started with green beans and they flared the insomnia up again big time so they're back out. I've been incorporating some pumpkin seeds recently and seem to be doing fine with them.