Veganism a sham?

[Nahm]

@ajasatya I hear ya. 

@AMS Take a look at spiral dynamics. Interest in this topic might be green callin ya in. ? Veganism and vegetarianism were very foreign to me at one time, but I tried it and the difference, ime, in clarity, energy, sesitivity, and overall health really can’t be expressed. It’s so worth trying out. 

[Emerald]

6 hours ago, Outer said:

If we took out all the cow, pig, chicken, etc slaughter like you've said, then we will significantly reduce the amount of agriculture necessary. With what we need that is left, there is still isn't that many deaths from humans, as the study took a mouse study in which 1 out of 17 were from harvesters, the others from other animals.

The other deaths can be mitigated with pest control that has a contraceptive, indoor, green house farming, like in that video. Skyscraper, vertical farming, adding in fences, increasing the height of plants, reducing vegetation, changing machine design.

That study actually provides some solutions at page 16 and forward. https://sci-hub.tw/10.1007/s10806-018-9733-8

I suggest that you go over it Emerald. If you went over that study in the beginning you would see that the authors admit that that number is clearly false.

Thank you for the link. I am really interested in the topic of sustainability. 

[Crazy_Monkey_Brain]

As veganism becomes ideological and as seen as the truth, and only the truth, it then turns into a wack-a-mole game, trying to defend it, it’s exhausting. It’s has very good intentions overall all and is good for the planet, if you go vegan don’t cling to it, it’s too exhausting 

[Emerald]

9 minutes ago, Outer said:

That link is about ethics and it was the one the original poster linked.

Oops! I misunderstood what the link was for. I'll check it out later at some point. 

[AMS]

It is true that my activity on this thread seems to be as if I am trying to get a grasp on the ethics/sustainability of the way I have chosen to eat.  First and foremostly I eat a carnivorous diet for health reasons.  Maybe you jump to the conclusion that I am simply deluded but when it comes down to it the only thing I can digest without challenging pain is fresh beef (a coincidence?).  Even if I venture off beef on occasion and try other meats such as pork or chicken then I react to it...This is due to having a bacterial overgrowth.  The theory behind going all meat is now I can allow my body to heal (it is the most nutritious and bioavailable diet one can eat) and also for the bacteria to die off (because no longer feeding them any sugars).  The bacterial overgrowth makes me very sensitive to 'salicylates' and 'histamines' (chemicals occurring in different amounts in plants).  Plants want to survive as well.  Most meat is very low histamines and no salicylates.  There are many people on my group who have had similar stories as me.  I have been experimenting with other diets (paleo, ketogenic) for years and have found that zero carb/all meat gives me the most relief.  After exploring this perspective of health more I have come to an understanding that plants are problematic for some,  I have also come to the understanding that humans don't require any plants at all to have thriving health.  Many on my facebook group have healed their guts and had no desire to go back to eating plants due to their stellar (long term) health or otherwise they have attempted to and noticed they have severe reactions due to abstaining from the toxins (and fiber which can be very problematic, 'Fiber Menace' book) for so long.  I'm not sure but I feel humans are probably sensitive to plants in general (because we don't have the required bacteria in our digestive systems to break down the cellulose anymore, I have seen research saying that humans are the only mammals on the planet burning glucose as fuel and even herbivores that appear to eat a lot of carbs on the surface actually run on a high fat diet because their bacteria converts the cellulose in to fatty acids for fuel).  Then I think some plant eaters are more or less fine and maybe can even thrive due to genetics but it's definitely not everyone (who knows how they would do eating all meat though? but I hear of nothing but success stories).  If I would heal my gut completely by eating meat and then potentially try adding back some plants again then that could be an option but I don't necessarily see a reason to if there is more than meets the eye to the ethics/sustainability issue anyway (which it definitely seems that there is another perspective there which I am very interested to keep researching).

I don't find it a problem to kill an animal for food, I don't find that to be unethical at all...I see that as a mature view of nature.  I also feel if someone is genuinely sick from plants then forcing them to eat a diet which makes them considerably suffer would be unethical in it's own right so that already puts a dint in the world going vegan.  I do find the conditions that animals are kept in to be unethical for the most part.  Factory farming standards for chickens and pigs is appalling I'm sure but at least for cattle I feel there is a lot of misinformation out there and for the most part feel the cow has a decent life grazing outdoors.  Since finding this WOE for HEALTH reasons firstly I am now starting to dig a little deeper and starting to uncover a whole other side to what we think is sustainable or not.  Sure, if you think the slaughtering of animals at all is unethical then you are never going to find a solution to sustainabilty.  You may think that agriculture and crops is the way froward and even if that did cut down on animal deaths for the time being (?), where is that going long term with all the resources we are burning through?  I am learning that perhaps grazing animals would be a better solution because that is going to repair the soil.  The ruminants can then turn cellulose (which some humans can't digest easily) into something that we can (meat) along the way.  That would have to involve eating animals, but regardless you are already doing that when eating as a vegan but at least this way true sustainability is more deeply considered.  So how do you decide what is more ethical, more animal suffering in the short term or longer term (once all the soil/life is gone)?  and even that there would be more suffering in the short term if we would eat more meat is questionable because if we could not plant as many grains (and rather use the land for grazing animals and then slaughter them for food) then the harsh conditions of factory farming could ease up (this is the potential alternative perspective I am trying to get through to you here because frankly you don't know for sure that it's not true that factory farming only exists because of plant agriculture in the first place).  Animals will still need to die (because we will be eating them) but they will at least have a better quality of life...and maybe we could eat both meat and plants, all I'm saying is it's not entirely a given that Veganism is the best future for the world.

But yes, I am still learning and contemplating about the ethical/sustainability issue of this WOE I am doing and potentially such a thread was a bit premature however I am learning as I go.  I have great confidence that the 20,000+ group on facebook that has been helping me with my info could go back and forth with you guys all day long but they advised it's probably not the best way of going about it and rather to educate myself more so I can defend my perspective if needed and also to just embody great health to spread awareness.  When it comes down to it, it is your religion vs mine (but at least all the info has been dished out so readers of this thread can see both sides).  Some of the people in my group are long term carnivores (even people first hand in the farming industry, not to mention doctors, nutritionists) who have dug very deep and seen a perspective which you have potentially completely missed due to being locked into your ideology.  Even the author of 'The Vegetarian Myth' was a vegan for 20 years and she tried her best to hang on to her ideology as she watched her body break down, she said she should had abandoned veganism way earlier than she did when the signs were so clear.  This would had led her down a path which otherwise would be hidden knowledge to her.  I wonder if you would ever find yourself in a place of very ill health if you would still stand your ground and not potentially ask yourself what's going on?

If you want to reply to this then by all means do but I hope to leave this thread at this now.



 

Edited August 30, 2018 by AMS

[Shadowraix]

imo synthetic food is the true solution to the suffering problem anyway.

We have synthetic meat, just not very cost efficient or tasty.

[sgn]

9 hours ago, Good-boy said:

Veganism is good for chicks or guyswith small body structure. Being a 6'3 individual with 240 pounds of muscle mass it's impossible for me to turn vegan. I tried it for a month and lost alot of muscle mass and felt extremely weak. Additionally your sperm count goes down as well since sperm is made primarily of protein which the vegan diet lacksbig time.

Lies.

[Michael569]

There are tens of thousands debates exactly like this one all over 4 chan , quora digest, facebook, twitter.....

What's the point folks? Nobody in this loop is changing their opinion anyways. Let's just all go our own way and burry the axe. 

[exhale]

One can not live perfectly and any perspective can be critiqued and "debunked".  Though, I think there is something beautiful about someone trying to live their life with the essence that they are reducing harm, stress, pain towards other beings. 

[Shadowraix]

2 hours ago, exhale said:

One can not live perfectly and any perspective can be critiqued and "debunked".  Though, I think there is something beautiful about someone trying to live their life with the essence that they are reducing harm, stress, pain towards other beings. 

One can also look and find beauty in destruction.

[now is forever]

to defragment this a little bit, can we understand, that veganism is the most preferable nutrition form for the future? vegans have made it possible, that the world is slowly changing awareness and more and more people turn to at least vegetarianism. and there still is a lot of work to do for vegans to make this community grow. but maybe we have to accept, that it’s almost impossible to severe the whole world from the domestication of animals and from eating them. (i‘m in india at the moment and it’s so obvious why the cow is an holy animal here, because they need the dairy products) farming animals in a more humain way and only eating meat occasionally would be a way also in other countries. 

we could also come to the conclusion that veganism and more ecological animal friendly ways of farming are the preferable alternative, unfortunately there are meatarians out there who almost made a religion out of meat eating, i guess some of them have darker ego reasons than health.

we could also come to the conclusion, that there is a problem we can’t solve by just not eating animals anymore - it’s the problem of hyper industrialization and a crisis of overproduction of food in general, also plants, and how this industry eats up our health and  contributes to mal nutrition (so far for now). this whole meat industry is a codependency to the carnivore. and it’s an interdependency with gene manipulation and pesticides/chemical industry.

and it would be an illusion if we would think veganism could change that on its own. 

the other point is, how can we change bad nutrition through veganism? think it’s a matter of finding the healthy form of veganism. just not eating meat does not mean it’s a healthy nutrition - eating healthy without meat is a complete  philosophy! no wonder people like to chose simple ones (meatarian that’s it...)

@AMS in my perspective i can understand that someone is totally smashed if „meat“ healed an illness, but did you ever try other methods? as i understood it, it is not the meat that heals, but the absence of the unhealthy, so the cow has been your medicine completely unintentionally - while there could also be other methods, just not yet known or less easily to approach. 

methods like going raw or feasting? or doing a gut refurbishing, with healthy bacteria etc.?

i guess you really found a good medicine for your problem, but don‘t confuse medicine for food - even though food and no food can be medicine.

Edited August 31, 2018 by now is forever

[Arcangelo]

Here at actualized.org veganism is a cult and if you eat meat you are a monster.

I eat meat every single day BTW.

Is just the hypocrisy of green showing.

Plants suffer too when you cut them and when you chew on them, you know?

Edited October 26, 2018 by Arcangelo
green

[now is forever]

@Outer i would not bet on that. but you can’t ask them they don’t understand you if you don’t listen. 

poor lettuce. poor mushroom.

Edited October 26, 2018 by now is forever

[AMS]

14 minutes ago, Shiva said:

Most plants are grown to feed live stock. The animals themselves directly consume 95% of our oat production and 80% of our corn (in the US).

So, the meat industry is responsible for the majority of these 7.3 bn animals killed by plant agriculture.
 

This is a good point and something I failed to see when creating this thread.
I still standby my point of Veganism not being the best thing for our health nor planet however... 

Since researching some more I definitely agree there is a problem with the way animal food is being produced on an industrial scale (factory farming).  Here is a graph from a carnivore advocate whom I follow (not sure of the source however) but if it is accurate then it shows that CATTLE (who spend the majority of their life grazing and in which most get grain finished to speed up the process and to produce more meat) don't require as much crops for food as some may think. 

Also when done correctly, rotating grazing cattle can regenerate the soil by locking carbon into it.  In a vegan world non-renewable fossil fuels are used which kills the top soil.  Putting more of a focus on grazing animals could actually reverse desertification to a lot of land and produce nutrient dense food for humans at the same time.  Meat is nutritionally more bio-available to humans than plants due to the way our digestive systems have evolved (we are not herbivores but rather have a GI tract closer to that of a carnivore).  There would also be less wastage because meat is energy dense and satisfying.  Some claim that it could even improve the world hunger issue because there could be more of a focus put on local farming practices which improve local economies rather than third world countries having to rely on the cheap grain we sell to them which fucks them over in the long run.




 

[Michael569]

cmon guys let's cut this shit  this conversation should probably be locked, nobody is benefiting anymore. 

[AMS]

3 hours ago, Shiva said:

@AMS It's good that you're doing proper research!

Personally, I'm not very informed about these things. I only know that I would never kill an animal if it wasn't necessary. Put me in the jungle for a couple of weeks and I will start to hunt to survive. But right now I can go to the next supermarket and have an abundance of food to choose from.

It's not that I'm not against eating meat, I just don't see the necessity. I've been living without it for more than 5 years now and I'm fine. So, why would I kill if I don't have to? Because it tastes good? Is my taste really more important than another creatures life? - That's lack of perspective.

If one day it turns out that humans absolutely need meat and I become sick because I didn't eat it, then I will start eating it. But I would slaughter my own animals because the today's meat production is really terrible and I don't want to support whatsoever.

I can respect you for choosing to eat plants instead but what I am advocating for is that Veganism is not a wise move for the whole world.  It is true that certain people seem to be doing fine on a Vegan diet but it is also the case that many are getting sick and are starting to speak out against it.  They also claim that they tried various approaches to the diet and supplemented etc.  It is also the case that a lot of Science points there but there is Science arguing against it as well and the field of nutritional science at large is rather shaky because a lot of it is based on weak epidemiology and a lot of the philosophies cherry pick and misrepresent data and are biased due to financial interests.  Not to mention Veganism maybe seems to be an improvement over the SAD diet (short term at least) because the diet is better regimented and there is a possible healthy user bias.  There aren't great long term stats because a lot of people abandon the diet when it isn't working for them and the long term ones are probably the ones genetically better off in digesting plants.  Also there are quite a lot of deficiencies, which could also be argued for the SAD diet but imo the problem is that we are not eating enough animal products in both diets and rather too many carbohydrates. 

I think animal products are necessary for optimal human health for the majority of people and it's not just a taste thing.  According to the graphs below our digestive systems are built for meat and we don't have the guts to process fiber nor cellulose like a fore-gut or hind-gut herbivore does (we have too short of a colon, hardly a caecum, don't have the required bacteria for fermentation, don't have multiple stomachs and don't eat our own shit for extra nutrition like a hind-gut herbivore such as a gorilla does).  Our metabolism is completely different when eating carbohydrates to that of a proper plant eater.  Every mammal eats ketogenic by standard (even herbivores) except for (most) current humans because of how we digest plants (proper herbivores have bacteria which ferment the plant matter into fatty acids which are used as primary source of fuel whereas we burn the glucose).

I don't necessarily want to get this thread boiled up again but at the same time I think it is a good reference for people to see it in an objective manner and get both sides of the story.  Also death is going to happen either way, what should rather be the focus is the amount of suffering for the animal and trying to minimize that.  It could be argued that raising pastured animals to slaughter could potentially reduce their suffering because nature is grueling and there is not another predator out there treating their prey in a humane way like we have the capability to do (of course we could better regulate the practices).  Maybe a better future would be for ethically raised meat and locally produced plants rather than supporting industrial agriculture because suffering also happens in crop production to the generations of animals who had their habitat destroyed.






 

[now is forever]

@AMS when you have been a vegan what type of carbohydrates did you eat. just generally speaking out of interest.

because you know, you have the theory that some humans can digest plants better than others. i ask myself how many plants you did eat when you where vegan or if it even where so many.

Edited October 26, 2018 by now is forever

[AMS]

I am no guru in nutrition either, just been doing a shitload of research that potentially a lot of people aren't able to see because I got sick which meant I could only digest fresh beef (I mention this is detail on the previous page) which opened up a world of alternative information to me.

I guess you could call us omnivores but I also have seen that humans can survive (and thrive) on meat exclusively so when thinking about it from a bigger picture perspective, it makes sense that we have evolved to eat meat especially during times of ice ages where plant foods would not be easily available.  That's why the graph's I posted above make sense to me, but as you said vegans have their own graphs (which I believe to be false, the fact that other mammals burn fat as their primary fuel says it all to me). 

People claim that nutrients in plants are not as bio-available as they may seem on paper.  The body needs to do certain conversion processes for certain proteins and vitamins (turning beta carotene into vitamin A for example).  Also plants (especially grains) have antinutrients such as enzyme inhibitors which prevent adequate nutrient uptake and cause inflammation.  Some of these chemicals include phytic acid, lectins, gluten, salicylates and oxalates.  It is claimed that these antinutrients can be extracted out of the plants if they are prepared properly (soaking/fermenting) which may be true to a degree (still most don't do this) however this also depletes nutrients and have some antinutrients remaining.  Herbivores have these complex guts especially to break down these mechanisms that plants contain.  Also fiber is non-digestible to a human and not necessary in the diet, lots of people do better without any at all (when they drop plants completely).  Humans also don't have the enzyme to breakdown cellulose at all, which is the main compound of plant material. We can digest starch however if the gut can tolerate it but I think it's secondary to animal products.  What I mean by some humans can digest plants better is that they can handle these conversions and can extract the nutrients better than others.  According to my theory, some humans have evolved better equipped for plants since the end of the last ice age.  I have also read that vegans run off their reserved vitamins and may not notice deficiencies until down the track.  I don't have a study off the top of my mind for this, I understand that might discredit me but I haven't looked into it deep enough, just heard it from other resources.

I was never vegan but rather paleo then paleo AIP (auto-immune protocol) and standard ketogenic.  First eating many healthy plants (no difficult to digest wholegrains, mostly sweet potato and then white rice for energy, white rice because it is easily digested without it's defensive shell).  I found relief when discovering a zero plant food group.  I understand I could potentially eat plants in the diet once my gut heals but wanted to stress the point that meat must be more soothing for our gut (which it definitely is) than we have been led to believe (at least when eaten in isolation away from carbohydrates).

In this graph you can see that animal products have even decreased since 1970 and carbohydrates have gone way up.  Also it is true that total calories have gone up, because carbohydrates are addictive by nature and blood sugar is fluxuating which leads to eating more often.  Diseases of civilization are rapidly amplifying yet a lot of the world is blaming it on meat.  Industrial plant oils are also not included in this graph but I feel they are a problem as well and we are not eating enough saturated animal fat which is actually ideal for us.  I understand there are probably other factors involved as well but my point with these posts is to show that maybe there is more than meets the eye to the demonization of meat that we are seeing so strongly atm and that vegans should be more considerate and realize that not everyone will do well on that diet.  I posted this playlist of videos in another thread but want to leave it here as well.  Whether you dislike the host (Sv3rige) is against the point but he has interviewed many ex-vegans and I have watched episodes where they have presented the great effort they went to to do the diet right.

Please no one take this too personally, this is just my perspective on things.  I also realize coming about it with such a title 'Veganism a sham?' when I created this thread a few months a go was a bit provocative.  I just don't think eliminating meat is the way forward but rather better practice of animal and plant agriculture.



 

Here is a list of a lot of studies against veganism:

https://pastebin.com/ZSKczhCx








 

[AMS]

59 minutes ago, Outer said:

How is saturated fat ideal for us when it increases LDL cholesterol levels, and certain levels of LDL has higher occurrences of CVD? Confounding factors isn't in play because they've shown from people who have genes that lowers their LDL levels have less rates of CVD.

 

 

There is science on both sides as you can see with these studies/articles attached.  I don't generally involve myself in digging deep into the scientific literature however because I mostly go from my bigger picture understanding and also the 2 decades worth of anecdotal evidence on my strict carnivore group, some of the people there have been eating nothing but meat for twenty years and in great health.  Also there are a lot of ex vegans and people who are sensitive to plants doing great eating carnivore.  Mostly anecdotal evidence for now but in the coming years there will be some hard science on the keto/carnivore diet but it is a relatively new movement (at least in the eyes of the mainstream).  Though there is a group of doctors in Hungary who have been treating many patients using a high fat meat only diet and reversing a bunch of serious diseases.  They have documented case studies.  I read on my group the doctors also eat the same way but can't be sure of that.  This is their website:

https://www.paleomedicina.com/en

Another website for all meat diet testimonies:

http://meatheals.com/

and the scientific studies debunking the cholesterol myth...  There are a lot of advocates out there arguing against high ldl cholesterol causing heart disease.  You can read a book about it ( https://thebigfatsurprise.com/ ) talking about the nutritional politics of what went wrong and how the cholesterol thing was just a hypothesis which has been debunked over the years.  Just a google will find a lot of information about that.  I get there is still science on both sides so it is hard to see what is true or not, therefore science is not the be all end all and should always be questioned.  Lots of people argue against anecdotal evidence but sometimes it gives us a good hint of which direction to look in.  I'm not saying there isn't anecdotal evidence for healthy vegans, but once again what I am arguing for is that veganism is not for everyone!  It's not as if many people today have tried a diet high in animal products either so who knows how they would do?  There have been cultures in the past who have eaten like this however, and imo the majority during ice ages for example.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17512433.2018.1519391

http://annals.org/aim/article-abstract/1846638/association-dietary-circulating-supplement-fatty-acids-coronary-risk-systematic-review?doi=10.7326%2fM13-1788

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/51/15/1111

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/opinion/outlook/amp/Want-a-healthier-heart-Eat-a-steak-Opinion-13239443.php
 

[AMS]

1 hour ago, Outer said:

Also you know about LDL cholesterol lowering drugs?

 

 

Here is a recent article talking about how the removal of cholesterol lowering drugs could be of benefit:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-6176151/No-evidence-having-high-levels-bad-cholesterol-causes-heart-disease.html