Spiral conflct: she hates my authenticity, I hate her social sensitivity

[Ar_Senses]

Hello there, my dear lovers of infinite jerking!

I need some help so here are some interesting Case for you. I will very grateful for your help, because I'm stuck. I'm 23 y.o.

Please, help me to solve my biggest obstacle in relationship.

History: 1,5 year of realationships with girlfriend, living together in a small one-room apartment. I have a very unpleasant problem in the relationship, which has dragged on for a long time. I will be very honest with you and I hope for help from those of you who know more about how relationships works.

Her perspective: regularly condemns and criticizes me for how I behave with other people. For lack of sensitivity and attention, straightforwardness and carelessness. Becoming pissed of the fact that some of my reactions look like "teenage", often spell the phrase "my man should not be like that".

Her justification: She is sure that her position is right and that people need to worry and experience each other and sometimes to sacrifice their interests in common. This is the way of life.
She believes that my behavior and "teenage reactions" to some situations are can't have any value, which means that I should easily let them go and accept her worldview regarding the issue of social interaction.

Her Clues: She rightly believes that she is skilled better in matters of everyday life, comfort, etc. She grew up in a strong full family, a loving mother, stepfather and sister, which, in her opinion, gives her the right to "authority" in such matters. I lived 18 years in a one-room apartment with my mother (without father), who gave birth to me at the age of 20, I did not do much of my education, I often found resonance in the rap of Kendrick Lamar and his ballads about the life of teenagers left to themselves. My most underdeveloped qualities are "Modesty and humility; Industry, diligence, and perseverance; Self-control and self-regulation; Citizenship, teamwork, and loyalty ". Sometimes it seems to me that I can use abusive behavior: I have been cursing as a child since my childhood and was cruel emotionally, and young and attractive women are often associated for me with sex and pleasure. Before that, I had 4 "serious" girls, a break with each of which was painful and unpleasant for me and them, and each relationship did not last more than 7 months.

My perspective: I regularly feel censored and editable; I get annoyed when she give me an example of how "normal" and what others can "think" about me/her/us. I do not see that she ever doubted her own convictions and tried to work with herself.

My justification: I'm very cheerful, extrovert, charming guy. I have many friends, women often gets attracted, people find my sense of humor as fun and am quite successful in terms of career for my age. Many people describe me as a kind, cheerful, sincere and wise guy.
In fact, I'm afraid that my girl, without realizing herself, is doing the work of the collective ego and if I make myself what she wants me to be, I'll spiral backward, and my connection with the authentic self will become thinner.
I worked on myself for more than four years, meditated, watched a lot of videos, read books, pondered and went to the retreats of Vipassana, Ayahuaska, Bufo Alvarius, thinking a lot about how the world works and what the Ego is, and so on. I have a rich life experience.

My Clues: Before meeting me, she did not even think about the nature of reality, self-development and purpose. She used to think that the cause of problems is outside. She attaches great importance to appearance, to what others will think about her. She’s become ashamed easily if someone sees her failure or weak. She is often ashamed of herself and her imperfections. We have certain difficulties with sexuality, it becomes much more relaxed, if she comes a little bit drunk from meeting with girlfriends.

Question: I can not understand which of us is right and who is wrong. Who plays what role in this conflict of convictions and, most importantly, how to come to peace and quiet. I do not understand the ways that would help me to establish peace and learn how to negotiate, so that not one of us would feel that we were "enslaved" by other people's values, which the other does not agree with. This takes a lot of time and energy and it's stupid.

P.s. You can check out my trip report form 5-meo-dmt retreat to know me better and go deeper in understanding, BTW it's intresting

Edited August 24, 2018 by Ar_Senses

[Martin123]

57 minutes ago, Ar_Senses said:

I can not understand which of us is right and who is wrong.

Thats it right there you have found the issue, bingo.

You are two individuals with different experiences in life, with two very different perspectives. And you are in conflict, because as you have stated your girlfriend thinks she is right. And in her own point of view, she is. 
In your own point of view, you also seem to be right, or there is a desire to be. And yes, your point of view is right. 

The solution to that is the acknowledgment of the truth behind each point of view. You can still honor your beliefs, experiences and point of view, while acknowledging hers. It doesnt have to be a conflict of My Truth vs Your Truth, but it can be a discussion, oh I see it in a different way, thank you for enriching me in your point of view. It doesnt mean you have to abandon all you hold dear, or follow exclusively what she likes.

The power of acknowledging of the opinion of the other person is the first step into empathy with your partner, which allows for a deeper emotional connection. Once there is empathy, there is trust, once there is trust, she might find herself even feeling much safer with you sexually.

So instead of seeing it as a game of right vs. wrong, how about it became a dance of mutual acknowledgement, respect and connection. Not Me VS. you, but I share my point of view, and I equally so allow you to share yours, with respect, and no need to persuade you about mine.

[Martin123]

@Ar_Senses And also in more blunt terms, it could be helpful to start making it all about her, while putting yourself aside, and just leaving space for her to express whatever she likes. 
Because you see you really gotta learn to step out of your own ego if you wanna connect with another. Not as a way of abandonment, but as a way of creating space around your self/ego, that she can enter freely.

[Ar_Senses]

@Martin123 But how you think will be better to do if she experiencing emotional struggle while I’am actcing like I used to.

But I’m also didn’t enjoy by acting like she’s want.

Do you mean I should put aside my own likes and dislikes?

[Martin123]

1 minute ago, Ar_Senses said:

Do you mean I should put aside my own likes and dislikes?

Yeah!
Certainly not abandon them, but just put them aside if you desire a connection with your girl. Because your likes and dislikes are acting as a wall between the two of you.
And you will be surprised, the moment you can put your likes and dislikes aside, and allow her to feel safe in your presence, how different you both will feel. 
And I know this isnt the same because its a romantic relationship, but just to demonstrate an example. When a parent doesnt like how a child is acting and starts pushing forth their agenda, the child doesnt feel very supported and free, and it often acts even in a more "undesirable" way, because it feels its being restricted. Kinda like trying to cage a wild animal.

Allow your girlfriend to be as she is, allow her to flower in her own innocent way, theres nothing wrong with the way she acts and perceives, she is just true to her experience. 

[Martin123]

6 minutes ago, Ar_Senses said:

But how you think will be better to do if she experiencing emotional struggle while I’am actcing like I used to.

Well can you be there as a firm support for her emotional outburst without reacting?
Thats the masculine role in the relationship, to be grounded within yourself enough to be able to hold space.

[Privet]

Why would you try to change and push her if she doesn't want to?

If she doesn't want to question her believes the only way to do so is manipulations. Why would you want to MAKE someone change who is not even considering this?
Why would you continue relationships if you have such an incompatibility in values and both of you suffer because of this?

Edited August 27, 2018 by Privet

[Ar_Senses]

@Privet Because of hope, that we’ll figure out how to interact with peace and believe that nothing will happen without work.

We both want and at the same time don’t want to be together 

Because it’s easier to be by yourself, but also can be rewarding to be with somebody.

I guess, spiral dynamics explain it's very well: when individuals, organizations and society’s faces new type of problems, they are trying to work “harder and better” with the same old instruments. Than, when they are realizing that it doesn’t work, become despaired and can regress to the lower or progress to the new, more complicated stage.

I guess we as a couple now facing it

But it’s true that unfortunately I’m not sure right now that I can feel myself great with or without her and it’s can be a problem.

[Privet]

@Ar_Senses

 

 

4 hours ago, Ar_Senses said:

I guess, spiral dynamics explain it's very well: when individuals, organizations and society’s faces new type of problems, they are trying to work “harder and better” with the same old instruments. Than, when they are realizing that it doesn’t work, become despaired and can regress to the lower or progress to the new, more complicated stage.

I guess you can regress to the blue by accepting her advice on how to act. Or you can progress to yellow by stopping fighting for your perspective and not judging her view.

You try to convince her and it doesn't work. That's the problem that you try to solve by the same instrument.

At least it seems so.

Edited August 29, 2018 by Privet

[tsuki]

@Ar_Senses I can relate to what you describe from my personal experience.
Conforming to authority of society has always been a struggle to me, until I realized that in doing that, I am establishing my own rules and expecting them to be followed by the ones that are close to me.
It is possible to authentically conform to the rules of society, if you are willing to observe that your authenticity is established as a way of (conscious, or unconscious) braking of rules. It is done through self-reflection. By breaking the rule of breaking the rules.

It may seem like a preposterous suggestion, but that is precisely what I'm saying.
Become authentic by letting the most precious thing you have, the expression of your humanity, shine in the back pocket of your uniform.
Unbeknownst to anybody.

[CuteCornDog]

I don't think you two should be together.

[Privet]

On 8/24/2018 at 8:59 PM, Ar_Senses said:

I can not understand which of us is right and who is wrong.

None of you is right or wrong. You can choose to always act like society suggests or you can choose to be authentic. It's not a matter of right or wrong, it's a matter of what makes you feel better. And if some perspective feels better it doesn't mean it's superior.

Also, can you give a couple of examples of the subjects of your conflicts? I mean precise description of what caused the disagreement.

 

[Ar_Senses]

5 hours ago, Privet said:

@Ar_Senses

I guess you can regress to the blue by accepting her advice on how to act. Or you can progress to yellow by stopping fighting for your perspective and not judging her view.

You try to convince her and it doesn't work. That's the problem that you try to solve by the same instrument.

At least it seems so.

This is exactly what I was thinking about. For the first time I was triggered and afraid that I can regress to blue, but last week I’m reading about spiral and even become gracious for the challenge which can make me better.

Thank you for sharing your perspective, it’s made that issue clearer!

[NoSelfSelf]

What teenage like behaviours shes talking about?

[Ar_Senses]

@Privet , @NoSelfSelf 

Here it is

Example #1

When we’ve traveled to Estonia. Me, my GF and her two old friends (they are couple). We get to know each other before so I was feeling comfortable with them. So while we hanging around in the city I’ve cracked a lot of jokes and my gf thought that some of them was offensive for them. And in general she was thinking that I’m too egocentric, because I can say that I want turn on some of my music while we riding in their car or say that I want or don’t want something.

My gf pissed me at the end of travel by her nervousness about my “unpolite” behavior, and, vice versa, she was pissed of me.

After we got back, we even had a serious conversation about my unpropriate behavior, but couple week after when we’ve had a dinner with those guys I’ve asked them to answer genuinely, was everything alright in the travel and they said to us that yes, everything was good.

Example #2

This one is about my “teenage” behavior. It has happened while we were at our friends apartments.

Imagine couch, tv in front of it, and soft chair in the left from the couch. My gf was in that chair and friends were sitting on the couch, playing video games. My gf calls me for something and I walked between tv and couch (it’s like 0,5 second way) and my gf showed me what she was wanted and after asked to walk around, for being more comfortable for guys. I was already pissed, cause we’ve hanging with our friends all night and I’ve had a 5 or 10 fresh judgements about my behavior from her and that whole theme has started to really annoying me at general.

So I’ve made how she was asking, but “acting out” and trying to express what I feel about it. I felt like these is an only way she will start to think twice before taking too serious those little imperfections. We’ve had a couple conversation before and I’ve already said to her: “I will change in some of my behaviors, if you really feel uncomfortably, but you better be aware that often I feel myself censured and unauthentic, but you better think before - does that comfort and politeness more important for you, than my feelings”.

Example #3

Me, GF and her sister with her husband sitting at the table. My gf saying that we’ve ended to watching second season of “Dirk Gently”. Husband said: “Oh, why the fuck you’ve done it? Second season is fucking bullshit” and I’ve answered with a little agression something like “Oh, come on! It isn’t as bad as you saying”.

At that moment my GF looked at me like, you know how people do that, when they want to ashame somebody silently. It’s looked like person suddenly tries to poke ?

But at that time (was couple days ago) I’ve stopped a conversation and asked publicly - was her sister or her husband offended by my expression of opinion. Nobody was offended

Example #4

My gf get back from euro trip with her friends and me and her sister are took her from the bus station. While she was in that trip some of her freinds pissed her off by some unconscious pattern with money (alsways preaching about how everything expensive, asking how much other has and etc.), especially at the end of it.

So while we drove on our way to home she was expressing her negative feelings and anger about it. I was okay with that, but after 20-25 minutes I’ve started to feel myself uncomfortable, plus it’s not the vibe that we need, while we will dinner together, so I’ve said to my GF that we better change our topic, but she got offended. I didn’t get why and she starts to explain me, that it’s sounds like “I’m fucking tired of this shit and I’m already had a headache, so shut the fuck up”. I was denying it, but her sister said that it was really sounds like that.

Example #5

Another teenage

We were at the gas station and gf and our freinds was smoking at the backyard if it. I was walking to them from the shop and when I’ve started to come closer gf asked me to buy some napkins. I get pissed a little because it was second day after my foot finger surgery plus I’m triggered a by that addiction discrimination. For example, if you in the car with two smokers - it’s somehow okay that they’ll smoke.

So I’ve spontaneously answered like “Why me?”

Example #6

I was going to work and searching for a cloth for myself. I’ve took the jeans and gf said, that I need to iron them before putting on. I’ve answered that I don’t want, she said it second time and I’ve answer again with some childish notes in my voice. Like teenager answers “I don’t want!” 

Example #7

When her mom asking 5-7 times to eat something I’ve becoming a little annoyed and can’t hide that reaction. 

Edited August 29, 2018 by Ar_Senses
More content

[Ar_Senses]

@CuteCornDog

1 hour ago, CuteCornDog said:

I don't think you two should be together.

You know, when I’ve started to do karting sports for the first 20-30-40-50 times I was often do mistakes and can’t race like I want (and still do, but less or different). In the 6 or 7 races in which I was participating I won only once, and becomes last about four times.

And I have so much troubles to karting well, I need to practice more, get shaped, concentrate better, know how to overcome rivals etc.

But I love it so much, that feeling of excitement, that flow state that I can achieve sometimes when I’m driving, that challenge of competition, that feeling that you’ve done your best, sound of engine, feeling of speed, smooth turning, overtaking, best time on the lap etc.

Do you think I should quit karting? 

[Privet]

@Ar_Senses

Here are my thoughts:

1) If you ask someone were they offended or not they may lie to not upset you.

2) Even if they were not offended it doesn't mean you weren't rude. (And I don't mean you were.)

3) The vibe matters, even if you told the truth but with intonation of judgment people feel that.

4) To me it seems that this situation requires understanding of psychological shadow more than spiral dynamics. Here is how the shadow perspective can help you to understand what's going on:

• Your GF was shamed by her parents and was always told to behave. She assimilated beliefs that she has to be good/perfect and now she is very critical to herself and tries to make you conform to her standards because she is afraid of what people think about her because she has such a "rude" boyfriend.
• Your behaviour may or may not be egocentric.
• If her assumption that you tend to be egocentric is right then it's your shadow side, and you may actually be rude and justify it with authenticity and breaking the rules. You need to break the rules only when it really limits you. Some rules are helpful.
• If your behaviour is not egocentric then she is projecting her false assumptions on your behaviour and this is her that is actually egocentric and sees egocentricity in the normal communication.

I would suspect that you both are unaware of the shadow parts of your characters, but the question is to which degree each of you is egocentric and are you both willing to work on that problem? Or is that only you that is interested to find the truth?

3 hours ago, Ar_Senses said:

“I’m fucking tired of this shit and I’m already had a headache, so shut the fuck up”

Dude! It's fucking selfish!

2 hours ago, Ar_Senses said:

Do you think I should quit karting? 

You should find a better karting club!

Edited August 29, 2018 by Privet

[Lynnel]

5 hours ago, Privet said:

I guess you can regress to the blue by accepting her advice on how to act. Or you can progress to yellow by stopping fighting for your perspective and not judging her view.

You try to convince her and it doesn't work. That's the problem that you try to solve by the same instrument.

At least it seems so.

That's not how spiral dynamics work. In a very cliché way, blue would beat her up because she's a girl and why is she even talking while yellow would meta communicate to solve the issue. You're not rising or regressing anywhere just because you have some attitude or opinion. Spiral dynamics is amazing but it's way more complex than simple stages. It's a great tool just please be warry of becoming the boy with the hammer, which once he has a hammer in his hands only sees nails to bang

[Ar_Senses]

29 minutes ago, Lynnel said:

That's not how spiral dynamics work. In a very cliché way

There is always potential to grow or downgrade on spiral, both horizontally and vertically. It's often the question of enviremonet (inner and outer). Stage can grow or outgrow if there is a challenge which can be solved only by one stage.

I mean, if you now will be dropped in the deep forest of Amazonia you'll activate your biege stage or imagine if you are gay from Netherlands, who moved to live in Iraq or North Korea.

It's often about your worldview, approaches and values. 

[Privet]

39 minutes ago, Lynnel said:

In a very cliché way, blue would beat her up because she's a girl and why is she even talking

Oh yes, that sounds so right But what if he's a soft-skinned blue?

39 minutes ago, Lynnel said:

You're not rising or regressing anywhere just because you have some attitude or opinion.

If you stop judging lower stages and if you get to understand that you have to communicate regarding the stage of the one that you communicate to you actually are progressing. Or the better way of saying that would be that you understand that you progressed because of those insights.

But I think that's right, this is kind of misuse of spiral dynamics. We could claim that this is the spiral conflict if she would try to convince him to go to the church or something. Most likely she's just highly (self)critical orange.

Edited August 29, 2018 by Privet