It's an absurd the policies of some Vipassana centers

[brugluiz]

I just read the policies to participate in a Vipassana retreat of a meditation center and it's an absurd the way they treat people with mental disorders.

I read the policies of this meditation center more specifically: www.dhamma.org/en/index

They say Vipassana is not recommended for people with mental disorder and even say that those with a history of various treatments tend not to complete the ten-day course.

It's is NOT true!

Mental disorders have a strong bond with spirituality. It's unfair what they're saying. They're doing the worst by stigmatizing people with mental disorders.

I can't understand why does it exist among the spiritual realm. If you commit yourself to spirituality, you should understand other people better, and not stigmatize them or treat them as different people.

[CreamCat]

A policy would prevent certain people from using their service.

The center says it is not "recommended". It doesn't say it is "forbidden" for such people.

It is merely an opinion from their experiences.

Edited August 23, 2018 by CreamCat

[Rilles]

Its like when you go on a rollecoaster ride and they say people with heart conditions shouldnt ride it, they dont discriminate against them its just that they have to be responsible if something negative happens.

[brugluiz]

13 minutes ago, CreamCat said:

A policy would prevent certain people from using their service.

The center says it is not "recommended". It doesn't say it is "forbidden" for such people.

It is merely an opinion from their experiences.

It still stigmatizes people who have a history of mental disorders. It would be much better if they just said:

"We accept people with history of mental disorders, but, they need to pass through an evaluation."

There are examples of people who participated in Vipassana retreats and were diagnosed with mental illness.

It's important to recognize that mental illness is not what most psychiatrists say it is (or what mainstream science say it is). Psichiatry is pretty an Orange paradigm.

The way the meditation center approach mental illness is from an Orange paradigm.

[brugluiz]

16 minutes ago, Rilles said:

Its like when you go on a rollecoaster ride and they say people with heart conditions shouldnt ride it, they dont discriminate against them its just that they have to be responsible if something negative happens.

It's not like the rollercoaster analogy. If you have a history of mental illness, it could mean you passed through a spiritual crisis. People who passed through a spiritual crisis are much more prone to do and even conplete a Vipassana retreat.

I suggest reading Rethinking Madness by Paris Williams or take a look at Phil Borges TEDx Talks about psychosis and spiritual awakening.

[molosku]

What are these "strong bonds"? 

[Arkandeus]

its not like they are discriminating, there's a lot of respect in that policy, it is not malicous

[PsiloPutty]

I hear what you're saying, but also look at it froma legal standpoint. If they didn't address mental illness at all in their website, someone who's not stable could do the retreat, have a huge episode and sue, claiming that there wasn't any mention at all about possible adverse effects of prolonged meditation with their condition. Bam, the place is closed after paying the dude. From a business standpoint, I'd rather offend you a little than to have what I just described occur. 

[brugluiz]

9 hours ago, molosku said:

What are these "strong bonds"? 

Many people diagnosed with mental illness are passing through a spiritual crisis (sometimes with no ego observation, what may characterise psychosis). Spiritual crisis happens when the individual experience many changes of, for example, goals, values and attitudes.

6 hours ago, Arkandeus said:

its not like they are discriminating, there's a lot of respect in that policy, it is not malicous

They do a generalization. They practically say: "if you have a mental disorder history, we do not recommend Vipassana."

The truth is: if you have a mental disorder history, you can take many benefits of Vipassana. But you need to be stable. Having a mental disorder history doesn't mean you're unstable.

1 hour ago, PsiloPutty said:

I hear what you're saying, but also look at it froma legal standpoint. If they didn't address mental illness at all in their website, someone who's not stable could do the retreat, have a huge episode and sue, claiming that there wasn't any mention at all about possible adverse effects of prolonged meditation with their condition. Bam, the place is closed after paying the dude. From a business standpoint, I'd rather offend you a little than to have what I just described occur. 

I see it more like a lack of understanding of what a mental illness is. I still think they should address mental illness, but not the way they do. They should tell the truth then (if it's the truth). Ayahuasca centers here in Brazil say you shouldn't take ayahuasca if you're taking psychiatric medicines because it's dangerous, but, after you're free of medicines, you're allowed to do that. The same thing is with Vipassana. You're not allowed to do the retreat if you're psychotic, but, after the psychosis is gone, you're allowed to do that.

This paradigm of mental illness as a threat is pretty Orange.

[Rilles]

Why don’t you open your own meditation center where anyone can join? You can do that! Be the change! 

 

 

 

But dont be shocked if you run into some problems with your free for all policy.

[brugluiz]

4 minutes ago, Rilles said:

Why don’t you open your own meditation center where anyone can join? You can do that! Be the change! 

 

 

 

But dont be shocked if you run into some problems with your free for all policy.

It's not free for all policy. I said that if you have a mental disorder history, it's important to pass through an evaluation. Be willing to welcome, not to exclude.

I'm shocked because it's an Orange paradigm in a Vipassana center.

Your idea of opening a Vipassana center is nuts. I don't have such experience to do such thing and I'm being the change when I address such problem.

If an Art School mention people with mental disorders as problematic people, shouldn't we address this peoblem?

If you are a person with a mental disorder history and see such stigmatizing sign in a Vipassana center, wouldn't you address this problem?

If someone is stigmatizing another person, wouldn't you address this problem?

This Vipassana center don't need to be closed. It needs more information about mental illnesses, as you do.

[Rilles]

Maybe you can write them? I’m not sure how easy it is to get in touch with them though.

I dont have anything against people with mental disorders (thats a too broad of a term btw) I just understand that if you have an underlying issue with for example bi-polar depression you might feel great one day and then terrible the next therefore having to cancel your retreat.

But sure if you have something to add to their policy then do that. Hope you succeed in that.

[Forestluv]

Below is the statement from the link you provided. It sounds reasonable to me.

“People with serious mental disorders have occasionally come to Vipassana courses with the unrealistic expectation that the technique will cure or alleviate their mental problems. Unstable interpersonal relationships and a history of various treatments can be additional factors which make it difficult for such people to benefit from, or even complete, a ten-day course. Our capacity as a nonprofessional volunteer organization makes it impossible for us to properly care for people with these backgrounds. Although Vipassana meditation is beneficial for most people, it is not a substitute for medical or psychiatric treatment and we do not recommend it for people with serious psychiatric disorders.”

[brugluiz]

32 minutes ago, Rilles said:

Maybe you can write them? I’m not sure how easy it is to get in touch with them though.

I dont have anything against people with mental disorders (thats a too broad of a term btw) I just understand that if you have an underlying issue with for example bi-polar depression you might feel great one day and then terrible the next therefore having to cancel your retreat.

But sure if you have something to add to their policy then do that. Hope you succeed in that.

I've written to them yesterday. If they're going to answer, it'll take some time.

No matter what label it's given to a person with mental disorder history, it's possible to heal it (there are some stories in Mad In America website). If it's possible to heal, it's possible to do a Vipassana retreat.

[brugluiz]

2 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

Below is the statement from the link you provided. It sounds reasonable to me.

“People with serious mental disorders have occasionally come to Vipassana courses with the unrealistic expectation that the technique will cure or alleviate their mental problems. Unstable interpersonal relationships and a history of various treatments can be additional factors which make it difficult for such people to benefit from, or even complete, a ten-day course. Our capacity as a nonprofessional volunteer organization makes it impossible for us to properly care for people with these backgrounds. Although Vipassana meditation is beneficial for most people, it is not a substitute for medical or psychiatric treatment and we do not recommend it for people with serious psychiatric disorders.”

"Unstable interpersonal relationships and a history of various treatments can be additional factors which make it difficult for such people to benefit from, or even complete, a ten-day course."

Their statement seems to say that every people with mental disorders backgrounds have unstable interpersonal relationships. It is a lie. A history of various treatments means the person passed through a lot of suffering, but it doesn't she's not able to complete a ten-day course.

You guys should understand that mental disorders may be a process of healing and not a process of regression of your capacities.

"Our capacity as a nonprofessional volunteer organization makes it impossible for us to properly care for people with these backgrounds."

They simply say: if you have a mental illness background, you're out.

"Although Vipassana meditation is beneficial for most people, it is not a substitute for medical or psychiatric treatment and we do not recommend it for people with serious psychiatric disorders.”

As if psychiatric treatment is the solution for people diagnosed with psychiatric disorders. These people are generally victims of the system. They're are hospitalized against their will and are forced to take medications. As if it's not enough, a meditation center treat these people as problematics.

There is a lot to learn about what a so-called mental illness means. It's not supposed to make you weaker. It's supposed to make you stronger.

 

[mkrksms]

I’ve tried to apply to a 10-day vipassana course two times. Both times I got rejected because I chose to be honest when answering the questions in the application form about my history of mental illness. I think it’s a bit weird actually.. I explained to them quite in detail what kind of ”problems” I’ve gone through and it sounds strange to me if they’re unfamiliar with mystical experiences and altered states of consciousness. But of course these phenomenons are labled as psychotic episodes/dissociation/depersonalization/derealization etc in psychiatry.

It’s actually very ironic.. ’cause I mentioned this to a nurse at the psychiatric clinic where I’ve been diagnosed, and even she thought it was strange that I was rejected. She said she thought it would be a good idea for me to go on such a retreat, haha.

Edited August 23, 2018 by mkrksms

[Forestluv]

@brugluiz I read it differently. I think they are saying some individuals with SERIOUS mental health issues have attempted their retreat with an expectation of being treated for their serious illness. I think the coordinators are saying they are not qualified to treat people with serious mental illness. 

I would contact them and tell them your condition and meditation experience. It sounds like they accept individuals with mild to moderate mental illness. 

[brugluiz]

1 hour ago, Serotoninluv said:

@brugluiz I read it differently. I think they are saying SOME individuals with SERIOUS mental health issues have attempted their retreat with an expectation of being treated for their illness. I think the coordinators are saying they are not qualified to treat people with serious mental illness. 

I would contact them and tell them your condition and meditation experience. It sounds like they accept individuals with mild to moderate mental illness. 

It would be magically good if it was true, but I read some stories of people with mental disorder background that were not accepted by these facilities even when appliying to it the proper way. I read a story of a person with mental disorder background who never had an answer for her application from the meditation center. The documentary CRAZYWISE talks about a Vipassana center that didn't accept Adam after they knew he had a mental disorder background. @mkrksms also tried to apply and they didn't accept him.

It's too easy to close your eyes and pretend that nothing is happening. These meditation centers are not just discriminating people with mental disorder background, but also stigmatizing them.

1 hour ago, Outer said:

If you have intense suffering, then a vipassana meditation facility might not be the best place for alleviating it. It's mostly volunteers there, how would you take care of people and expect them to meditate multiple, multiple, hours a day? Following the rules and the instructions?

If you have intense suffering, you may take a break of meditation and spiritual practices. But having a mental disorder background doesn't mean you're still having intense suffering.

[Recursoinominado]

Well, the course is hardcore on your mental health, you really have to be on top of your game here otherwise you will not finish it. I sat in one course and serve in another. I talked with people with lots of experiences with those courses and they have lots of concerns with those matters because the center can get shut down if someone have some sort of mental breakdown. They told me a story that in one of those courses one guy probably had a neurotic break down and started to get paranoid, he accused the staff for putting sedatives on the center water for the students, he called the cops who showed up and the center was almost shut down. So yeah, better take care with those things. Also, on a side note, i was told that the staff isn't much open minded about drugs like psychedelics and could denied your application because of it.

[brugluiz]

12 minutes ago, Recursoinominado said:

Well, the course is hardcore on your mental health, you really have to be on top of your game here otherwise you will not finish it. I sat in one course and serve in another. I talked with people with lots of experiences with those courses and they have lots of concerns with those matters because the center can get shut down if someone have some sort of mental breakdown. They told me a story that in one of those courses one guy probably had a neurotic break down and started to get paranoid, he accused the staff for putting sedatives on the center water for the students, he called the cops who showed up and the center was almost shut down. So yeah, better take care with those things. Also, on a side note, i was told that the staff isn't much open minded about drugs like psychedelics and could denied your application because of it.

As I said before, if you're psychotic, you shouldn't go to a meditation center. But many people with mental disorder background don't get psychotic anymore. Many of them passed through a process of healing which psychosis was part of it.

Even if they are having problem with such "neurotic" people, it's possible to take measures in order to include them, and not to exclude.

According to this article https://psychoticbuddha.blogspot.com/2013/01/psychosis-and-buddhist-retreats-back-in.html?m=1 there are retreats that are accepting people with mental disorder background. And it seems they don't ask if you have a mental disorder background, but just if you can meditate for long periods of time.

That's the point they should investigate, the capacity of a person to meditate for long periods of time, and not if she has a mental disorder background.