How could something emerge out of nothing?

[fluidmonolith]

@SomethingFromNothing

I can't explain why the universe came from nothing because I am not aware, at this point, whether that is true or false. However, if I ask "How did the universe come from nothing?", it sounds like I have reached a conclusion without really understanding that conclusion. Before I can ask that question, I need to answer a more fundamental question "Did the universe come from nothing?" Unless I really know that that's true, how can I answer the next question? How do I know the universe came from nothing? Because someone told me and I believed it? Because I experienced it? Because I rationally thought it out and came up with something that makes sense to me?

I think language is also a barrier here. I will admit, a lot of the language used in these forums is very hard for me to derive meaning from, likely because we all have different perspectives and experiences, and sharing those experiences is not really possible with words. We must contemplate the questions "What is something?" and "What is nothing?" before we can even ask questions like "How does something [the universe] come from nothing"?

Part of this process of contemplation could include the realization that we are all interpreting reality from a set of presumptions, or foundations, that we assume are true, but may not may not actually be true. In this case, the presumption is that of cause and effect. We assume everything in our everyday life has a cause (because it seems true in our experience, right?). In many instances, we observe "something" existing preceded by "something else" before it. We never see any obvious "something" sprout up from a "nothing" (I'm using these terms in quotation marks because we haven't really defined them yet). I think it is a mistake to conclude that (1) our perceptions are always correct, and (2) what we perceive in one case will be true in a different case. Just because everything we can see around us was preceded by something else doesn't mean the same is true for the universe.

But in any case, I would start with really contemplating the meanings of "something" and "nothing" before trying to figure out if or how something could come from nothing.

 

Edited August 15, 2018 by fluidmonolith

[SoonHei]

4 hours ago, MarkusSweden said:

Leo does it ONLY for YOUR best and for the sake of spreading this enlightenment movement with non dual understanding for the good of humanity and the world. 

agreed 100%

 

ma man got my soul yesterday with a post of his and it made me see what i was not seeing before

 

Leo is indeed enlightened

he's using his state to spread this knowledge and message

 

them 4 hour video shoots - data being downloaded in his head as he speaks... u think that's an unenlightened being folks?

 

that's a zen-devil-enlightened MOFO we Love, that's Leo <3  

[SoonHei]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Form is identical to formlessness.

@Leo Gura @AllOthers 

 

What exactly does this mean?

 

Like form?

Form means a shape? Or as you mention in your videos... is form what u call a distinction? 

 

Like what is being talked about when we say form? 

 

Shape is shapelessness ?

[Preetom]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Just trust my guidance on this one guys. Otherwise you will waste years looking in the wrong direction.

I am pointing you straight at nothing. But it's extremely radically and the mind doesn't want to see it.

Take a psychedelic to speed up the realization. This one's a doozy and will take you 20 years to realize sober.

I double down on this one. For the last week, I've been doing contemplation (Spiritual Autolysis) and honestly haven't found a single difference between what I call my personal past, memories as a person and last night's dream.

It feels like absolutely Nothing is trying desperately to appear as something; to appear as a person, yet never ceases to be Nothing. This thing keeps getting sick af 

Edited August 15, 2018 by Preetom

[Naturalist]

Form is emptiness, emptiness is form.

The cause of form is emptiness, the end result of form is also emptiness.

Form will rise from emptiness, form will fall into emptiness.

 

Edited August 15, 2018 by Naturalist

[WindInTheLeaf]

2 hours ago, SoonHei said:

@Leo Gura @AllOthers 

 

What exactly does this mean?

 

Like form?

Form means a shape? Or as you mention in your videos... is form what u call a distinction? 

 

Like what is being talked about when we say form? 

 

Shape is shapelessness ?

Form is formless if you see past the notion of there being something of some size and shape and with some boundaries to some other stuff that is other kinds of form. Contemplate the forms you see, where do they begin and where do they end, what is it, is it really anything at all when you put aside your subjective guesses as to what it is. 

The distinction between form and formless breaks down at some point, but until then they divide the world into that which has some physical appearance, that are there so to say, and that which is invisible, spirit, without any kind of manifest that we can use to apply some kind of categorization to it other than relative to that which has form. The universe as a whole must be formless, as it has nothing  to stand relative to, that can give it form. Within the universe the formless manifests in infinite ways as the formless is boundless. Form thus arises out of the formless, but is formlessness in and of itself. Form is not really a thing, and yet it is as the formless manifests in every possible way, or else it would be bound and thus not formless. Only that which has form can be limited, be bound. This is all very confusing, and i don't really understand it, I only have an idea of how such an idea would take form, my advice is to forget about it.

[SoonHei]

@WindInTheLeaf lol

 

good attempt there. i did understand what you said there. i had the similar idea about it too

nothing really is there "enforcing" a certain shape/form... so thereby, "form" is formlessness

 

2 sides of the same coin... but not even that, even more closely 1

 

as you said, it's better to forget about it.. as in, dont try to figure it out using mind..

 

as Leo said, when you have the moment of awakening, then you truly get what was being said and you see that form is infact formlessness - in all it's glory  

[Forestluv]

13 hours ago, SomethingFromNothing said:

How everything could actually be nothing? 

For me, it was important to let go of my conventional understanding of the terms. The conventional use of the term "everything" includes things outside of other things.

Example: The house fire destroyed everything (in the house).

In common language, we don't use the term "everything" to *really* mean everything. Rather, we mean every - thing (every individual thing) that we separate out from other things. Here, we mean every individual object inside the house. This is a very limited use of "everything" as it doesn't include any-thing outside of the house. If someone said "The house fire destroyed everything" - we assume this doesn't *really* mean everything. Just the every single thing in the house. 

When someone who is awakened to this uses the term "everything" it can seem odd because the listener has never heard it used in this context and has never themself used the term in this context. There has always been a limit to everything and one could conceive of some-thing outside of everything. Yet here, we really, really do mean everything. No limits. No "I like everything", "everything she cooks. . .". We mean everything with no limit or condition.  If it really is everything, then all individual things are included in everything. ALL things are within everything. This is a radically different way to use the term. . .  Here, there is no - thing (no individual thing) outside of every - thing. So, every-thing is no-thing. Now, the term "everything" doesn't make conventional sense, so some people may use other terms like absolute infinity rather than absolutely everything. 

[AnthonyR]

Here is one way of looking at it: The reality of everything is "Nothing" unless observed, unless perceived (with the senses) then labeled and defined.  Nothing becomes something when it "Observed".  The act of observation, or the act of perception, creates something out of Nothing.  The only way you know an Apple, is because you perceive it, you inquire about it, you inspect it, then call it an Apple.  Take away your five senses one by one and the knowledge of the apple slowly disappears until eventually it becomes non-existent to you.  Much like everything else in the universe. 

The only reason you "See" the apple is because photons of Light are reflecting of the skin of the apple, which is absorbing some of the colors of white light and reflecting the rest.  What you see with your eye is reflected light.  Without the eye, light and dark becomes meaningless aka non-existent.

So try and see the world, not with the senses, but in the absence of all senses, all perception and all knowledge.  Once you do that, everything becomes absolutely and purely Nothing.

In the absence of perception there is no 0 either.  In fact there is no Nothing either.  Just Pure and Absolute Silence.

Edited August 15, 2018 by AnthonyR

[SoonHei]

@AnthonyR In the absence of perception there is no 0 either.  In fact there is no Nothing either.  Just Pure and Absolute Silence.

 

So the VOID or the nothingness experience that people reach when meditating is that pure and absolute silence?

 

But that pure and absolute silence is ALIVE AND AWARE?

 

Is that it?

 

To lose the 5 senses (temporarily) and have the truth be revealed?

[cetus]

@SomethingFromNothing Turn the question around.  How can nothing emerge out of something? Where does something go when it is no more? Or does nothing emerge out of something? Or is nothing -something and something- nothing. Maybe it's all cyclical in nature and dancing an infinite dance from nothing to something to nothing to something. Maybe-it's all an illusion.

[AnthonyR]

42 minutes ago, SoonHei said:

So the VOID or the nothingness experience that people reach when meditating is that pure and absolute silence?

I very much doubt that can be experienced.  Because if it is experienced, its purity becomes tarnished.  But while it cannot be experienced, its after-effects can be felt.  This is why you meditate.  You try to reach that level of pure no-thought, no perception, no nothing.   When you're in this state, you will never know it, you will only feel its effects after you come back to sensory experience.

42 minutes ago, SoonHei said:

But that pure and absolute silence is ALIVE AND AWARE?

I do not know if it is alive and aware.  "Alive" and "Aware" is a human experience.  But it may be the closest description or words we can use to try to understand if pure and absolute silence is aware of itself.  It may be Alive and Aware, but not how You and I understand the meaning of those words.   Its awareness of purity, of silence, of absolute infinity may transcend our understanding of what it means to really be Alive and Aware, without breath, without perception, without experience, or maybe all of it.

[SoonHei]

hmmmmm

 

this almost also sounds like a very good night sleep

 

its been a while since i did this but i used to put an alarm on to wake me up mid-sleep on weekends lol

 

its like each morning when i get up from work, ur eyes are just begging for a little bit of more sleep but u cant have it

 

on the weekend, when i know i can sleep in - waking up from the alarm, and then knowing u dont gotta work. u turn that shit off quick and then happily go back to sleep. that sleep satisfaction is multiplied then lol

 

gotta be careful not to forget u have a day off and u end up going to work on a saturday

OR

gotta remember that it is a work day with a real alarm so u dont end up sleeping in lol

 

 

also. the satisfaction of sleep, the feeling of wanting to close the eyes. the feeling of sleepiness in general is something which we all want so badly, especially when woken up abruptly. i guess that's what the bliss and peace feels like. a deep sleep, except your consiounessly enjoying it so to speak  

[Leo Gura]

Form just means every tangible object or experience.

Everything you've experienced in your life, from a cat to a car to a house to an idea to an emotion, is form.

And formlessness is...

[Marinus]

Isn't nothing the lack of direct awareness you currently do not perceive. For example the space behind the wall is not in your awareness, so nothing is behind the wall. When you walk behind it, then the place you formerly stood on doesn't exist in your awareness hence it being nothing. 

This is as far my mind can take me. ?

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Marinus said:

Isn't nothing the lack of direct awareness you currently do not perceive. For example the space behind the wall is not in your awareness, so nothing is behind the wall. When you walk behind it, then the place you formerly stood on doesn't exist in your awareness hence it being nothing. 

This is as far my mind can take me. ?

No

Nothing cannot be imagined. You are trying to imagine it. That's not it.

The wall IS Nothing.

The mind will never get this. This requires a radically altered state of consciousness. Your consciousness must dilate open. A few thousand hours of intense mediation will do it. Or some psychedelics.

Reasoning it out will never work, so you might as well give that up.

[Naturalist]

Emptiness is a necessary prerequisite for any objects to exist; without it, the object would be impossible.  Basically, emptiness corresponds to two distinct scenarios:

1.    It corresponds to the inherent existence (due to unchanging nature) that all conventional phenomena lack.

2.    It corresponds to the dependent arising (a conditional phenomenon) i.e. subject to the same lack of inherent existence as every other object or phenomenon.  This is referred to as the emptiness of emptiness.

In Buddhism, there are two types of meditation - one is samatha and the other is vipassanā meditation.  Samatha meditation is to calm or tranquil the mind by means of concentration.  Whereas, vipassanā meditation is to mould the mind into seeing all things as they really are – an insight into the true nature of reality.  The main focus of vipassanā meditation is to attain pure awareness via mindfulness.  Vipassanā is often preceded by samatha but nonetheless, both types are inter-dependable throughout the practices in order to achieve favourable results in meditation. 

Microscopic analysis of things (Samatha)

If one were to zoom in the analysis of a solid ball by gazing into its core contents i.e. atoms, one could realise that the ultimate result would yield to the absence of things (no unchanging elements).  At the end of the day, one could declare that form is empty in a real sense because there is no core essence within it except for the elements of energy that evolve constantly under the influence of the external conditions.  In other words, one could mention that the form entity has a delusive nature i.e. it is an appearance, though not illusive, but devoid of inherent existence and constantly varies under the influence of conditional phenomena. 

Macroscopic analysis of things (Vipassanā)

If one were to zoom out the analysis of a solid ball by receding into a long shot distance indefinitely, the solid ball would appear to be shrinking into a tiniest size and one could realise that the ultimate result would yield to the absence of things (no things).  In other words, the broader the perspective that one engages in, the lesser the multiplicity of things would appear to be.  For example, the viewing of the earth from far and near would yield a different result to the observer’s perception altogether.

Emptiness <-- Micro-perspective (multiplicity & definite) <-- MIND --> Macro-perspective (uniformity & infinite) --> Emptiness

As a conclusion, the emptiness of phenomena is both the cause and consequence of the dependent nature of phenomena.  It is the inherent quality of existence and is considered the ultimate truth because it inherently exists exactly as it is perceived when it is perceived directly by an enlightened mind.  However, we shall not confuse emptiness with nothingness.  Emptiness cannot be meant as nothingness.  While we say that form is emptiness, there are still basic elements enfolding it.  Just like when we do declare a vessel as empty, it does not literally mean nothing inside the vessel – there could still be air, radiation, dust, viruses, etc. that cannot be discerned by our naked eyes.  At the end of the day, we could declare that form is empty in a real sense because there is no core essence within it except for the basic elements that orientate and evolve constantly under the influence of the external conditions.  What our naked eyes view as form is actually the matter that is also known as concerted, aggregated or concentrated or wrapped energy.  Since we can’t see energy with our naked eyes, we would say that the innermost of form is empty rather than nothing.