How can space and time be inside consciousness?

[Sbilko]

Up lately my endless search for the truth has led me to the most depressing idea that I've ever came to know: the universe will end one day; it might be in 98 billion years or in 100 billion years, but it will happen and it's inevitable. Time is ticking: just like tomorrow comes, the end to all will come; time passes so fast that you may consider it done already, as if it had already happened. I think that I was reading this when that idea came to me: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_fate_of_the_universe

Humanity wouldn't be safe not even if they all were peaceful (and thus avoided bringing extinction upon themselves) and somehow made it to the very end. There's zero chance for us or any other creatures that may live in the universe. 

I know that it's not practical to worry about what will happen billions of years ahead, but the mere thought of it makes me think that nothing has meaning. 

Nothing which humanity has ever done (or will do) will matter anymore; it will all end, regardless of everything. This idea makes me think that nothing matters, that nothing has a purpose, that life and everything in it is fully and completely meaningless.

Nothing can remove this depressing thought, apart perhaps from this other idea: by understanding that "You are eternal -- outside of space and time. You existed long before the Big Bang occurred." From @Leo Gura's guide to Enlightenment. 

However, that quote doesn't make sense to me (as to anyone with common sense). The only remotely understandable reasoning to help me understand that quote is even more confusing, by Kant. His theory is the following, divided in 3 steps:

1) Geometry, arithmetic, cinematics, and so on describe space and time. 

2) An a priori* synthetic judgement has to be independent of experience. 

3) In order to be really independent of experience, space and time have to be in the structure of cognition itself posited by the subject. 

* A priori means that one knows it beforehand; like, before learning it. 

 

I can't understand it, and I can't understand how anyone can; it makes no sense to me. It's as if it were gibberish, but instead written in a language which one understands. 

Do you know how can space and time be inside consciousness? How did you come to that conclusion? How do you explain Leo Gura and Kant's confusing conclusions?

If space and time are inside consciousness, then does that mean that we live in a Matrix-like fictional universe created by some superior species? How do we know that everything is not an illusion and that matter is created before our eyes so we can see it and be fooled by it?

[Leo Gura]

Everything is an illusion of course and nothing has any meaning already.

The universe will never end though, it will just turn into a unity and fragment back into infinite multiplicity.

Fun idea to contemplate: the beginning of the Big Bang and the end, heat death, are actually identical because you cannot distinguish them.

Space and time are illusory human inventions. You can become conscious that they don't actually exist.

[RichardY]

@Sbilko

Was listening to "a Critique of Pure Reason." literally a day or two before your post. Anyway the part I got up to, is basically Kant trying to justify an alternative realm where "freewill" is possible, as the natural world according to Kant, conforms to various laws. In opposition to a "soulless materialism". The notion of "freewill" being central and essential to his deontological(Duty) ethics. So he has to establish "another realm" where freewill is possible, and that can be perceived by some. In keeping with a transcendent God outside of space and time.

Personally I think of equating God with consciousness? I think an Immanent(with us) God might be more in keeping with Orthodox Christianity or Judaism.

Tend not to be too attached to various philosophers, more like skimming the cream, if I can... Or a process of elimination.

[fluidmonolith]

@Sbilko

I can understand the depression that results from the conclusions of current science about the fate of the universe. That it will end someday, and even before then, will become isolated pockets of matter separated from each other by uncrossable distances. It would be nice to be able to think of the universe as having limitless potential, and with a finite endpoint, it cannot.

Rather than searching for inherent meaning in the universe to provide this idea of limitless potential, I think we will become wiser by finding contentment within ourselves. Wishing for universe to be a certain way to provide us with happiness can only lead us to lie to ourselves, or suffer needlessly.

[CreamCat]

On 8/14/2018 at 6:02 AM, Leo Gura said:

The universe will never end though, it will just turn into a unity and fragment back into infinite multiplicity.

I don't understand this. Does it mean big crunch and another big bang?

[Leo Gura]

@CreamCat Can't say for sure, but seems that way.

Evolution seems like it will lead to an ultimate unity, which will then subdivide itself from scratch.

[Firmament]

People can find themselves in modes of existence outside space and time. It's easier to understand it through experience than trying to wrap your head around it. You make an attempt to think about it this way: you have only ever experienced consciousness. The idea that the universe is originally matter and consciousness arose from it is an idea that you learned about...within your consciousness. This entire time, your world has been purely a consciousness experience. As Alan Watts called it, a happening. Even your body is an idea within your consciousness. It's an idea of a thing that you are anchored to and have a lot of control over. But even this isn't concrete, as you can have out of body experiences. The only thing that has ever existed is consciousness, and you can't prove otherwise without a framework of assumptions. When you get underneath all assumptions, all beliefs, what's left is the naked truth. Even what's written here can't really come close to communicating the truth because it's using language and thought. The truth is untouchable via language and thought because it's what precedes form itself. Thinking about it and talking about it won't work. To see the truth, go within, into the origin of the happening.

[Arkandeus]

well....as your consciousness work progresses days literally are 10 times longer, more space enters your awareness, making everyone look and feel like giants, making your tiny toilet look and feel as big as a mountain

time bends and warps so much you know infinity is there and its completely possible to experience a day as long as a century in a completely smooth and harmonious happening

 

every single thing you do is shared with everyone on this planet through telepathy and higher self connection, every second, everything

its important to understand what is shared, what are we doing here, its always about love, love , love ,love , love

love is a boy and a girl, love is energy, fireworks, invention, creation, jummy food, family, music, movies, dancing, talking, hearing, animals, plants yadaydaydayada

 

you worry we die?

we die, we all meet up in spirit world! 

humanity doomed? you can chose to come back in any timeline you want, 2001, 1998, 1567, 567

yes the past is still being created! infinite intelligence

waste does not exist, lack does not exist,

the very fact that we have hand and legs is completely magical, its a hint as to how wonderfully magical and not bound to rules this world is! hands and legs! what? its awe

just look at the baby, she knows whats going on, look at her lookin, awe

Edited August 17, 2018 by Arkandeus

[Nahm]

@Sbilko A priori refers to an assumption, a belief you hold, as the product of thinking which is not rooted in your own direct experience. That there is this you, and this universe which will be here when you’re not, is a false a priori assumption, that’s why you find it depressing (cause it’s not true).

There’s no beginning or ending, there’s no time. It’s an illusion. What’s the difference between “The Big Bang” as the beginning of you (what you’re parents did lol) as an acceptable explanation for your beginning, and “The Big Bang” as an explanation of the beginning of the universe? Maya aside, they’re obviously the same thing. A perfect Goldilocks scenario requires a perfectly convincing cover story for “your beginning”. Infinite Humor. 

Consider, what is an apple? 

When, exactly, were you “conceived”?

?

[Sbilko]

@Nahm

Yes, a priori is a knowledge which you know without requiring any previous experience, like 3*4=12, you don't need to actually go test if it's true. 

Yes, I do believe that when I die my elements will change shape. And also that this universe will continue to exist until its end; how can this one be a false assumption? Yes, it is the source of what I find depressing; however, I know no better either ;p

Well, let me explain my viewpoint: The world is matter to me. Everything is matter, even I and every human on Earth are entirely and completely made of matter. Since we are all made up of matter and nothing else, there is no "I". Since there is no "I", there is no death in my opinion, but just a recombination of the matter of which we are made from.

6 hours ago, Nahm said:

What’s the difference between “The Big Bang” as the beginning of you (what you’re parents did lol) as an acceptable explanation for your beginning, and “The Big Bang” as an explanation of the beginning of the universe?

Therefore, to answer your question in the quote above: There is no difference between the beginning of the universe and my beginning, because I am made from the same matter which was created at the beginning of the universe; the only thing that happened is that this matter of which I am made of today, had changed shape over and over in the past dozen billion years. 

Your 2nd paragraph is a joke ?

How can there be no beginning or ending, and no time? I don't understand where your logic comes from. Like, yes, it comes together with the Enlightenment knowledge pack, but I have no idea from where that logic comes from. I would like to understand it, thought. 

However, I also think that our 5 senses don't lie to us (most of the time), so there must be truth in your words, even if I don't see it. It's just like this meme: 

 

6 hours ago, Nahm said:

Consider, what is an apple? 

When, exactly, were you “conceived”?

?

Well, in my opinion an apple is a bunch of elements gathered together, just like a rock, the Sun or any human being. The only difference between an apple and a human being is that the former has a different shape than the latter. If you look at it at a molecular level, their little molecules have a different shape too, and do different functions too. 

And well, I must have been "conceived" 9 months before I was born. Only a liar would remember. Though I see your point: I don't really know when I was conceived, the only thing I can do is believe what I was told. I have no idea if the world and everything is a lie. I have no way to know if everything before me didn't exist, and was created specifically to fool me to believe it. 

How can I stop being uncertain about the fact if it's all a lie? Simple: there must be a way to see for oneself; the same path through which you passed in order to see that "There’s no beginning or ending, there’s no time. It’s an illusion."

Edited August 17, 2018 by Sbilko

[Nahm]

24 minutes ago, Sbilko said:

@Nahm

Yes, a priori is a knowledge which you know without requiring any previous experience, like 3*4=12, you don't need to actually go test if it's true. 

A priori points at thought assumed to be true because one has not based their ‘true’ on direct experience. A priori thoughts / beliefs can cause a lot of trouble. 

Yes, I do believe that when I die my elements will change shape. What if you never die, what would that mean in terms of what “elements” are?

And also that this universe will continue to exist until its end; how can this one be a false assumption? An a priori thought(s) that the universe is other than you, appearing as the universe. 

Yes, it is the source of what I find depressing; however, I know no better either ;p

Keep looking into it. 

Well, let me explain my viewpoint: The world is matter to me. Everything is matter, even I and every human on Earth are entirely and completely made of matter. Since we are all made up of matter and nothing else, there is no "I". Since there is no "I", there is no death in my opinion, but just a recombination of the matter of which we are made from.

Relativity. Everything that changes. What about you has changed, what about you has never changed?  There’s a flip that happens from the ‘physical’ to the neither-physical or non-physical. I’d find answers to these questions with research and contemplation.

Therefore, to answer your question in the quote above: There is no difference between the beginning of the universe and my beginning, because I am made from the same matter which was created at the beginning of the universe; the only thing that happened is that this matter of which I am made of today, had changed shape over and over in the past dozen billion years. 

What was your experience of your begining and the beginning of the universe like?

 

Your 2nd paragraph is a joke ?

It’s funny cause it’s true. Do you see how “you” were “conceived”, just as idea’s are conceived? Cells divide, people divide, no one asks how or why. Is that what you are? Relativity? Just another gear in a cosmic clock?  Maybe. What were you when you were an infant, before an idea of you, infinite?  What has never changed?

How can there be no beginning or ending, and no time?

There’s really only one way that comes to mind.

I don't understand where your logic comes from. Like, yes, it comes together with the Enlightenment knowledge pack, but I have no idea from where that logic comes from. I would like to understand it, thought. 

? EKP packs.  All logic is appearance, and so is anything logically derived. Appearance changes. 

Infinite or finite is the basis so to speak, thoughts are finite succession, and non thought is infinite. ❤️

However, I also think that our 5 senses don't lie to us (most of the time), so there must be truth in your words, even if I don't see it. It's just like this

The 5 senses are.         Infinite.

Then duality is “applied” with thought: Do the senses lie, or do the senses not lie? And now what is, is experienced through a filter of duality, a veil.

And just that easily, we’re back into the maya.

 

meme: 

 

Well, in my opinion an apple is a bunch of elements gathered together, just like a rock, the Sun or any human being. The only difference between an apple and a human being is that the former has a different shape than the latter. If you look at it at a molecular level, their little molecules have a different shape too, and do different functions too. 

And well, I must have been "conceived" 9 months before I was born. Only a liar would remember. Though I see your point: I don't really know when I was conceived, the only thing I can do is believe what I was told. I have no idea if the world and everything is a lie. I have no way to know if everything before me didn't exist, and was created specifically to fool me to believe it. 

There’s ways you can know.

How can I stop being uncertain about the fact if it's all a lie?

Stop holding the duality: Is it a lie? Is it not a lie? and or investigate “outside” and “inside”. Essentially, drop it and chill out, or find out the Truth for yourself. 

Simple: there must be a way to see for oneself; the same path through which you passed in order to see that "There’s no beginning or ending, there’s no time. It’s an illusion."

There’s a path back so to speak, the undoing of each individual person’s relativity, “back” or “down to” , or remembering. We’re like snowflakes, each a unique one of a kind mix of relativity, thoughts, beliefs, emotion, identity. The internal compass always points the same though. The Truth never changes.  The variable is listening.

 

[here-now]

On 8/17/2018 at 1:31 AM, Firmament said:

When you get underneath all assumptions, all beliefs, what's left is the naked truth. Even what's written here can't really come close to communicating the truth because it's using language and thought. The truth is untouchable via language and thought because it's what precedes form itself. Thinking about it and talking about it won't work. To see the truth, go within, into the origin of the happening.

Well said! 

Re:  "How can space and time be inside consciousness?"

Here is a Rupert Spira video that may be helpful... Or not. lol (If not, then just dismiss it.) :