Jordan Peterson

[gerardgreen]

I have thought before that Leo made me realise that personal growth was a possibility and something that I could do in my life if I wanted to improve it but Jordan Peterson made me realise that personal growth may actually be a necessary to stop your life from becoming a tragedy, or at the very least becoming stale, dull and boring. 

[martin_malin]

 

[hundreth]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The paradox is, you will find Christ at the very bottom end of nihilism.

Could you speak in more detail about this? I've seen you promote this idea of diving deep into the nihilism in several posts and I'm never quite sure why. Perhaps do a video about nihilism. 

Aside from some of these Neo-Advaita teachers who encourage spiritual bypassing, you don't really see nihilism propped up in traditional spiritual practice. For example, the Buddhist middle way is precisely finding a balance between eternalism and nihilism. So what gives?

[Danwilbo]

This is a very interesting video that's just popped up from Rebel Wisdom where he interviews a "Zen master" dude and they talk about Peterson, post modernity, spiral dynamics, shadow work etc. 

Leo I'd like to hear your thoughts on his take of stage Green. He seems to think that there's no guarantee that green IS the bridge into the second tier. 

 

[martin_malin]

The segment about Green provided food for thought...thanks for sharing! His way of speaking seduced me and gave me the creeps all at the same time. 

[Emerald]

On 8/16/2018 at 11:42 PM, CreamCat said:

In my country, the radical feminists (the radical left) talk about aborting male babies, grinding them in a blender, and eating them with sauce. Cannibalism is justisifed against men. They often threaten and bully women who don't agree with feminism. They even talked about how delicious the male baby was in their mouths. It was probably a fantasy novel, though. It felt weird to see moderate feminists consider those radical feminists as useful idiots. Those moderate feminists didn't seem too bothered with eating babies. They justified those radical feminists for the purpose of empowering women. They justified eating baby because women were oppressed and are justified to take revenge on men.

This made me avoid feminism. It seems to me that feminist movements failed to contain psychopath infection.

I do not want to associate with them in any form.

It would be difficult for most people not to demonize and get angry at such radical leftists.

Oh... the STRAW Feminists, you mean? 

[CreamCat]

4 hours ago, Emerald said:

Oh... the STRAW Feminists, you mean? 

@Emerald How do I know whether they are straw feminists if they are the majority? In my country, they were approved by feminist associations. Are they straw feminist associations? People who claim to be feminists ally with them. Don't believe it if you don't want to. But, I've seen tens of thousands of those radical feminists demonstrate on streets and supposedly moderate feminists ally with them. Whether they are real feminists or not, they claim to be feminists. I've seen them hold placards reading `You have little dick. You are pathetic` or `Men should die`.

Even, some male journalists who claim to be feminists openly claim to support those radical feminists. Some newspapers ally with those radical ones.

The fact that those people exist holds. Whether you acknowledge them as feminists is another problem.

At least, in my country, the mainstream feminism(the loudest) is the radical kind. We don't hear about other kinds of feminism here.

I just think feminism has been contaminated by psychopaths and feminists lost ability to get rid of their own psychopaths. I avoid anything seriously infected by psychopaths.

As I said before, psychopaths can speak the language of Green(Feminism), and Green people seem to be poor at dealing with psychopathy. This psychopath infection problem is an old problem for many organizations.

One psychopath can nullify the work of 30~40 people.

Edited August 22, 2018 by CreamCat

[Leo Gura]

12 hours ago, MarkusSweden said:

What's up with young guys today? They seem to see a hero in JP. 

JP is serving a valuable function for young college-aged males.

He is giving them a sense of stage Blue discipline and direction which their culture never gave them.

Basically, at his best, what JP is proposes is having a sense of Life Purpose. Which is basically what my LP course is all about.

The only thing I would stress about that is that it's very important to realize that Life Purpose is a conceptual construction. It is not objectively true in any way. It's something one creates for oneself to live a good life and have a sense of focus. And to develop mastery in some field.

And that there is a higher level beyond life purpose, which is awakening.

One of the excesses of stage Green relativism is that it can leave people feeling lost, directionless, nihilistic, unwilling to engage in building a passionate life. JP seized on this Green excess and is building a public identity around it.

But reacting against excess tends to produce more excess of another kind.

[Emerald]

36 minutes ago, CreamCat said:

@Emerald How do I know whether they are straw feminists? In my country, they were approved by feminist associations. Are they straw feminist associations? People who claim to be feminists ally with them. Don't believe it if you don't want to. But, I've seen tens of thousands of those radical feminists demonstrate on streets and supposedly moderate feminists ally with them. Whether they are real feminists or not, they claim to be feminists. I've seen them hold placards reading `You have little dick. You are pathetic` or `Men should die`.

Even, some male journalists who claim to be feminists openly claim to support those radical feminists. Some newspapers ally with those radical ones.

The fact that those people exist holds. Whether you acknowledge them as feminists is another problem.

At least, in my country, the mainstream feminism(the loudest) is the radical kind. We don't hear about other kinds of feminism here.

I just like to think feminism has been contaminated by psychopaths and feminists lost ability to get rid of their own psychopaths.

As I said before, psychopaths can speak the language of Green(Feminism), and Green people seem to be poor at dealing with psychopathy. This psychopath infection problem is an old problem for many organizations.

One psychopath can nullify the work of 30 people. Very powerful.

What are these Feminists called? Do they have a name. Most Feminist groups have a name. And that's true no matter how radical or normal their platform is. That's the first reason why I was skeptical. 

Also, it just totally sounds like some 'made up to scare people' kind of stuff.... Honestly... eating babies???? Tons of these kinds of stories go around to smear Feminism. It's such a popular movement, that the resistance against it is equally strong.

Also, where the hell do you live? Where is this Feminist cesspool even at? 

I just have a really difficult time believing that this form of Feminism would be widely supported. Now, I would believe it if you said it was some fringe group who are into this and you could call them by name. 

But honestly, it sounds like you read something in some propaganda piece, and decided it was a real threat. 

Edit: Also, Feminism isn't an exclusive club. Anyone can call themselves a Feminist, and no one can stop them from doing so. So, it's not like anyone gets "kicked out" of Feminism for bad behavior. 

Edited August 22, 2018 by Emerald

[WaveInTheOcean]

My take on all this.

First of all Leo, my dear dear friend, Spiral Dynamics is nice, and it's pretty accurate on a lot of things. On an other hand, it's just a fucking model, and like all models it has it flaws. It's inaccurate in some areas.

I like Spiral Dynamics actually. It's cool as fuck. But it feels a bit like you've in the last few months has made Spiral Dynamics almost into a religion:)
hehe

Jordan Peterson is a special human being, that's for sure. Let us not idolize the man. But I must admit, I like him. But he has his flaws. Especially the flaw that he doesn't know that God is himself hehe, that's the ultimate flaw, that most ppl have, they think they exist as an individual separated from God or separated from "the mechanical universe".

Anyway, if we ignore that, he's actually spot on with a lot of things.

I actually see him at stage yellow. He's definitely  not at stage blue, cmon. He's not orange either nor green. I feel like he's a pretty clear yellow who has still long to go to get to turquoise.

But remember, Spiral Dynamics is just a fucking model, and it's not accurate on all areas. JP is a man who is hard to give a colour. But to call him blue is a joke imo.

And Leo, in his newest book he's actually talking a good bit about Eastern philosophy, i.e. Hinduism and Taoism, so yeah.

And yeah Leo "Someone like JP cannot accept the deeper truth that all morality is a human invention ", actually I think he can. But you know, if something is a human invention, it's also an invention of God, right? Cos human is a dream dreamt by God, so all 'human' moral constructions are also Godly constructions.  Look. Life/reality is a game, a dream. But there are arguably better ways to play it than others, just as there are better ways to play the piano, or better ways to play a PC game like World of Warcraft. I feel JP realizes this and teaches this important point to all the green motherfuckers who are way too posmodernisttic and relativistisk and naiv ly believes that all ways are equally "good" ways to live life, while not even realizing that life is a fucking game/dream.  My point is that you are in human form. That's the dream you are in now. And inside the game human is biology. We are social beings. It's hard to just become completetly free of attachments to human programming from biological evolution. To do this yoi gotta meditate in a cave for 50 years or take 5-MeO. Most ppl will never do this. So JP is important, because he is really coming from a Darwinian natural evolution-psychology standpoint - so to speak - and telling young guys some basic facts: ITS IMPORTANT TO EARN SOME MONEY. ITS IMPORTANT TO HAVE FRIENDS. ITS IMPORTANT TO WORK ON YOURSELF. ITS IMPORTANT TO STAND UP FOR YOURSELF. ITS IMPORTANT TO TELL THE TRUTH AND NOT LIE. ITS IMPORTANT TO BE OPEN THAT YOU MIGHT BE WRONG. ITS IMPORTANT TO HAVE SOME ROUTINES. ITS IMPORTANT TO EXERCISE AND STAY HEALTHY AND EAT AND SLEEP WELL etc etc etc, all points he's making in his newest book. 

JP is a good intelligent fellow, a bit too conservative to my taste, he's not alan watts hehe, he's not Leo either, but he's a much needed guy in the world, which is becoming a bit too posmodernistc while not making the full realization, that even existence itself is a hoax, a trick, a game, a joke.

[CreamCat]

18 minutes ago, Emerald said:

What are these Feminists called?

I live in a small country, and revealing their identity reveals my geo location and a lot about myself. So, to protect my personal information, I'm not going to name them.

They have a website. My government has been trying to shut down the website but couldn't. On the website, I read a lot of shocking things.

They enjoy seeing the dead bodies of men. They enjoy eating male babies. They once colluded on poisoning their male bosses to death. They also talked about raping boys and cats.

They also threatened to kill men randomly if the government doesn't heed their wishes.

They have turned a few huge female communities into their allies. There are about one million people on the website and its sister communities. They can mobilize hundreds of thousands of people on the internet. They demonstrate their number in internet votes. They can often mobilize tens of thousands of radical feminists for demonstrations on streets.

They ally with many newspapers that support those radical feminists.

To me, they look like a hugely successful criminal association.

Edited August 22, 2018 by CreamCat

[Emerald]

4 minutes ago, CreamCat said:

I live in a small country, and revealing their identity reveals my geo location and a lot about myself. So, to protect my personal information, I'm not going to name them.

They have a website. My government has been trying to shut down the website but couldn't. On the website, I read a lot of shocking things.

They enjoy seeing the dead bodies of men. They enjoy eating male babies. They once colluded on poisoning their male bosses to death. They also talked about raping boys and cats.

They also threatened to kill men randomly if the government doesn't heed their wishes.

They have turned a few huge female communities into their allies. There are about one million people on the website and its sister communities. They can easily mobilize more than 200,000 people on the internet. They can often mobilize tens of thousands of radical feminists for demonstrations on streets.

They ally with many newspapers that support those radical feminists.

To me, they look like a hugely successful criminal association.

I'm sorry. If you can't even tell me what they're called, then I don't buy it. And if you can't even tell me the country that you live in, then I don't buy it. You're just spreading propaganda. Period.

[CreamCat]

22 minutes ago, Emerald said:

I'm sorry. If you can't even tell me what they're called, then I don't buy it. And if you can't even tell me the country that you live in, then I don't buy it. You're just spreading propaganda. Period.

@Emerald It's good to have suspicions. But, I still stand by what I say. I told you it's good to not believe random accusations from other people. People are localists. They tend to believe their close friends, but they look at strangers with suspicion. The more distance you feel there is from you and the other, the more suspicious you are. Distance can be measured in terms of sex, race, geography, nation, ideology, and so on.

Understanding localism is going to help you make sense of people.

Edited August 22, 2018 by CreamCat

[Emerald]

12 minutes ago, CreamCat said:

@Emerald It's good to have suspicions. But, I still stand by what I say. I told you it's good to not believe random accusations from other people. People are localists. They tend to believe their close friends, but they look at strangers with suspicion. The more distance you feel there is from you and the other, the more suspicious you are.

You still haven't alleviated any of my suspicions by saying this. I don't believe you, not because you're a stranger. I don't believe you because you're CLEARLY spreading propaganda.

If you weren't spreading baseless propaganda you could telll me...

a) What that group of radical Feminists is called, so I can look them up and look up reports about them.

b) Tell me which country you live in, so I can look it up and look for reports of radical Feminists eating male babies and all that other shocking non-sense

c) Send me direct links to news stories about these radical Feminists

d) Give me a link to their website (which apparently has one million members... despite having its headquarters in a country so small that a person from there can't even tell me which country it is without random people on the internet knowing the exact location of where they live... even if they go by a pseudonym)

So, until you can supply any of these things, I recommend you stop lying. 

[CreamCat]

7 minutes ago, Feel Good said:

@CreamCat I think it's a bit harsh to call these folk psychopaths. But I totally agree with green being able to talk red. But red is unable to talk green ~ that is 100% sure in my mind. The issue with green is green is actually a bit dysfunctional and that can manifest in a regressed way. Righteous anger at perceived injustices can be fuelled by ideology. Green has this huge shadow that because they don't identify with violence, they end up perpetuating it without realizing it.

@Feel Good According to a model of psychopaths, psychopaths record words and emotions from other people and play them back in various situations. You are right that psychopaths don't understand social emotions or the language of Green, but they can play back recordings and see what the results are.

Psychopaths are tape recorders. They can record anger from someone and play it back in another place to experiment with people. They don't actually feel that anger. They record words from Green people and play them back in other places to make their ends meet.

Because normal emotions don't occur in psychopaths, their emotional displays can seem incongruous if you really pay attention.

In social people, an orchestration of emotions occurs, but psychopaths just play recordings. If you carefully watch psychopaths in a hidden spot, you can see record players in action.

Edited August 22, 2018 by CreamCat

[CreamCat]

@Emerald At this point, I'm not interested in making you believe this because I take operational security far more seriously than making you believe it.

I suffered consequences of breaching operational security in the past. There wasn't a big consequence, but it was definitely a thorn in my fingernail. Operational security matters for average people, too. You will realize this once it will come to bite you in the ass in the future.

That's why I digressed into localism.

Whether or not you believe my claims about radical feminism, you can trust that I take operational security seriously.

Edited August 22, 2018 by CreamCat

[Emerald]

5 minutes ago, CreamCat said:

@Emerald At this point, I'm not interested in making you believe this because I take operational security far more seriously than making you believe it.

I suffered consequences of breaching operational security in the past. There wasn't a big consequence, but it was definitely a thorn in my fingernail. Operational security matters for average people, too. You will realize this once it will come to bite you in the ass in the future.

That's why I digressed into localism.

Whether or not you believe my claims about radical feminism, you can trust that I take operational security seriously.

More lies.

Also, if you take "operational security" so seriously and these Feminists can nab you through your IP address or whatever... then why are you even on a public forum talking about them. Wouldn't that put you on the chopping block as well?

If you say that you can't divulge any information because of operational security, yet you go by a pseudonym with no picture and no info about yourself, then they could only get you through your IP address.

Yet you've been perfectly comfortable disavowing this radical group and criticizing them, despite the fact that you apparently live in a place where you're so afraid of these people that they would kill you if you compromised "operational security."

Edited August 22, 2018 by Emerald

[CreamCat]

I see that you are close-minded.

Truth is totally separate from opinions. Whether or not you believe anything about me, truth doesn't change. Now, I realize that leo is right when he said words cannot deliver truths because words occur inside a knowledge graph which is not truths.

Perhaps, it's better if you don't believe that I take operational security seriously because saying that I take operational security seriously is a blunder in operational security. What do you think is my true intention? You cannot know.

True open-mindedness entails considering anyone's claims as a possible hypothesis even if you can't believe anything for now.

Anyway, if you are not even going to take any of my claims as a possibility, I will just go do something else.

Edited August 22, 2018 by CreamCat

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, CreamCat said:

I see that you are close-minded. Truth is totally separate from opinions. Whether or not you believe anything about me, truth doesn't change.

Perhaps, it's better if you don't believe that I take operational security seriously because saying that I take operational security seriously is a blunder in operational security.

You've basically left every single one of my easily answerable questions on the table, and you're trying to move the goalposts to squirm away from this conversation because you know that you've been caught in a web of lies.

So, the only defense you have now is to call me closed-minded and make some rhetorical appeal to the fact that "Truth equals Truth, even if I don't believe it"... hoping that everyone else will think 'He is rhetorically appealing to the value of Truth, therefore he must be telling the Truth.' But it's still very easy to tell that you're telling lies.

But I am not closed-minded. I just recognize when someone is lying and making up falsehoods. And I never let them off them hook.

So, why don't just admit that you're spreading propaganda?

[Leo Gura]

7 hours ago, hundreth said:

Could you speak in more detail about this? I've seen you promote this idea of diving deep into the nihilism in several posts and I'm never quite sure why. Perhaps do a video about nihilism. 

Aside from some of these Neo-Advaita teachers who encourage spiritual bypassing, you don't really see nihilism propped up in traditional spiritual practice. For example, the Buddhist middle way is precisely finding a balance between eternalism and nihilism. So what gives?

Well, it's very simple. All that nihilism really boils down to is that being is meaningless. Which is what nonduality reveals.

That's all.

But the ego-mind don't want to accept that. To the ego-mind it seems negative or depressing or chaotic.

You gotta be very careful though. Meaninglessness does not mean what you think it means!

You don't need to dive deep into nihilism per se. You just need to become conscious that ego-mind constructs all meaning for the purpose of its survival. Once you become deeply conscious of this, life will cease to have meaning for you (at least for a while) and it will feel like a deep depressing nihilism as you realize that all your life motivations were predicated upon lies and illusions of the deepest sort. But keep pushing past that, surrender all your illusions, and you will eventually get to pure being, liberation, divinity.

This is what they call the dark night of the soul. It's really more accurate to call it: the final death-throes of the ego.