How exactly does 5-MEO contradict the Materialist Pradigm?

[now is forever]

22 hours ago, cirkussmile said:

Who cares about experiences? 

I have met many people who have done hundreds of 5meo trips but they still can’t live from stillness and peace.

It’s not about seeing reality, it’s about how you live it. How to live consciously continuously. People seem to miss this small detail which leads to liberation.

living it differently, what else is it than an experience itself. only the quality changes. 

[cirkussmile]

11 minutes ago, now is forever said:

living it differently, what else is it than an experience itself. only the quality changes. 

Yes, people live differently. But if people want liberation they have to stop hunting experiences. And if you don’t get that after hundreds 5meo trips then I’m not sure that it is liberation you are looking for  

[now is forever]

@cirkussmile  that’s what i wanted to point at. how ever step outside of the dream if not stepping into it and then stepping into it again, this time from the other direction.

Edited August 15, 2018 by now is forever

[fluidmonolith]

On 8/11/2018 at 6:00 PM, Leo Gura said:

The difference is I have ACTUALLY exited the dream and become the Absolute. You have not. So you are wrong.

Yes, this may seem arrogant to you, but nevertheless, it is true. And there is no way you will know if I am right until you yourself awaken. At which point you will clearly know the Absolute Truth, but you will be unable to communicate it to anyone else, and you find yourself precisely in my shoes, trying to explain awakening to the unawakened, who just cannot get it because they deeply underestimate what reality is.

That's the difficulty in using direct experience to derive truth, right? That experience can't be shared or even really agreed upon by others.

In this example, we have two possibilities:

1) Taking 5-MEO causes people to exit the dream and see true reality

2) Taking 5-MEO causes people to think they have exited the dream and seen true reality.

If one hasn't taken 5-MEO, it makes sense that they would expect case (2) above. I have not used psychedelics, so I cannot personally validate or invalidate them at this time. The best I can do at this time is to admit that both (1) and (2) are possible. I suspect if I did try psychedelics, I might draw similar conclusions (that I am have seen reality outside of the dream).

But I still have a problem with this conclusion. Even if future me takes 5-MEO and decides that case (1) above is correct ... that doesn't mean it's actually true! All it really means is that I think it's true. Even if I trust my experience completely, that doesn't mean that I'm right. Right? In other words, even if someone takes 5-MEO and then agrees with you, that just indicates agreement, not truth. I'm not saying that case (1) is wrong. I'm just trying to figure out how direct experience alone is sufficient to make it true. What am I missing here?

[Nahm]

The thing about outside of the illusion being an “experience”, is that only one who has not been outside would see being outside as an “experience” in the “past” -  it’s a projection, ironically, based on one’s experiences, they just don’t know that, because they have never been without experience.  Even referencing someone’s reference of the past, is a misunderstanding, is a projection, as there is no such thing as a “past”.  The linguistic hurdle is entirely missed, and admittedly incommunicable. 

Being in the dream is ALL and only experience, thinking or not, until you are outside - then, when back “inside”, you are the “outside” “inside”. Lol  

Being “outside” is actual reality, directly, without experience, without appearance.

And I know this will sound arrogant as all get out, but if it reaches just one person it’s worth it.....if you have not been “outside”, you have NO IDEA what you’re missing out on in the “inside”. 

Also...this can be accomplished with a “heroic dose” of shroom tea too. Much, much, much rougher come up, but it can get you there if you can let go and die.

 

 

 

 

[Nahm]

@fluidmonolith You’re missing that there is no you. (No offense man)

[fluidmonolith]

3 hours ago, Nahm said:

@fluidmonolith You’re missing that there is no you. (No offense man)

No worries, none taken. I am still contemplating the concept and implications of direct experience as the source of truth. In all fairness, I do realize that I am probably asking the impossible to say "prove direct experience to me". And even though I may be skeptical of some claims regarding reality (again: not that I think such claims are wrong; just that I can't confirm they are right), I am still interested in sharing those experiences. 

[AlwaysBeNice]

Sometimes doubt arises for me, then I think back to one shroom experience I've had, and I'm like: 'oh yeah nvm'

Simply during that moment, there is no confusion about the infinite being real.

To try to deny it would be similar to saying to God, 'hey God, you're probably not real',

God's only response can be:  'OMMMMMM DUM DUM INFINITY WOM WOM', 

Only when you experience it can you grasp how mind blowing it is, it's just....... ..... OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

..

By the way, regarding this brain/consciousness thing,

Think about the fact that the brain, or any object, cannot actually have a center, cannot stand alone by it self.

Every particle only exists because it is exists relative to everything else, it cannot stand alone. Reality is One.

Can you be separate as a consciousness therefor?

And you think that consciousness, that which literally creates reality, can be separate from creation?

Consciousness with also the experience of intelligence, emotions, free will, art, empathy, psychic experience in it?

..

And on quantum scale, reality evaporates.

A particle is not anywhere/everywhere, until it can be observed.

--

Literally everything shows it, somehow we're so deaf, we tend to not hear, it's just too unbelievable I guess, counter intuitive somehow and culturally inappropriate.

Doesn't matter though, and reading about it can only do so much, experience is the way.

 

[Nahm]

@AlwaysBeNice haha ya.   Like, WWWHHHHHAAAATTTTTT!?!?!?!     The Truth is unbelievable. 

[Leo Gura]

22 hours ago, fluidmonolith said:

That's the difficulty in using direct experience to derive truth, right? That experience can't be shared or even really agreed upon by others.

In this example, we have two possibilities:

1) Taking 5-MEO causes people to exit the dream and see true reality

2) Taking 5-MEO causes people to think they have exited the dream and seen true reality.

If one hasn't taken 5-MEO, it makes sense that they would expect case (2) above. I have not used psychedelics, so I cannot personally validate or invalidate them at this time. The best I can do at this time is to admit that both (1) and (2) are possible. I suspect if I did try psychedelics, I might draw similar conclusions (that I am have seen reality outside of the dream).

But I still have a problem with this conclusion. Even if future me takes 5-MEO and decides that case (1) above is correct ... that doesn't mean it's actually true! All it really means is that I think it's true. Even if I trust my experience completely, that doesn't mean that I'm right. Right? In other words, even if someone takes 5-MEO and then agrees with you, that just indicates agreement, not truth. I'm not saying that case (1) is wrong. I'm just trying to figure out how direct experience alone is sufficient to make it true. What am I missing here?

Yes, from your current POV and level of consciousness. that's how it appears.

But what you're missing is the Absolute.

You are assuming the Absolute will just be another relative phenomenon. Except the Absolute is not that. It's Absolute!

"Direct experience" of the Absolute is not like a regular experience. That word "experience" is misleading here. We use that word because you do not have direct consciousness of the Absolute and so it cannot be communicated to you in any other way than to call it "an experience". But it's not really an experience, or a perception, or a thought, or a belief, or knowledge. It's something entirely new which you've never encountered before. And yet it's right there under your nose right this second.

What you're missing is that you have 100% raw direct unmediated access to Absolute Truth, prior to perception or experience.

Because you believe that you exist, this sense of self which you think is real has co-opted the Absolute and recontextualized it as "my experience". Such that the Absolute is right there, but you cannot see it because the ego has managed to convince itself that "this is MY experience". Once the ego is realized to be an illusion, "experience" will be recontextualized into the Absolute.

There actually never was such a thing as "experience" or "perception" or "a human looking at the world". That was the Absolute the whole time, but you didn't realized it because you were so self-absorbed that you mistook the Absolute for "my life, my experience, my perception."

If you could understand what I am saying here, you'd already be enlightened and there would be no need to have this conversation as it would be perfectly obvious to you already.

Can you notice that you are not a human being, but that you are God? It's right there! Look! You're God!

See it?

The thing looking through your skull, your eyes, is God. Seriously. Stop fucking around and notice it. Realize what you are.

[Rinne]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, from your current POV and level of consciousness. that's how it appears.

But what you're missing is the Absolute.

You are assuming the Absolute will just be another relative phenomenon. Except the Absolute is not that. It's Absolute!

"Direct experience" of the Absolute is not like a regular experience. That word "experience" is misleading here. We use that word because you do not have direct consciousness of the Absolute and so it cannot be communicated to you in any other way than to call it "an experience". But it's not really an experience, or a perception, or a thought, or a belief, or knowledge. It's something entirely new which you've never encountered before. And yet it's right there under your nose right this second.

What you're missing is that you have 100% raw direct unmediated access to Absolute Truth, prior to perception or experience.

Because you believe that you exist, this sense of self which you think is real has co-opted the Absolute and recontextualized it as "my experience". Such that the Absolute is right there, but you cannot see it because the ego has managed to convince itself that "this is MY experience". Once the ego is realized to be an illusion, "experience" will be recontextualized into the Absolute.

There actually never was such a thing as "experience" or "perception" or "a human looking at the world". That was the Absolute the whole time, but you didn't realized it because you were so self-absorbed that you mistook the Absolute for "my life, my experience, my perception."

If you could understand what I am saying here, you'd already be enlightened and there would be no need to have this conversation as it would be perfectly obvious to you already.

Can you notice that you are not a human being, but that you are God? It's right there! Look! You're God!

See it?

The thing looking through your skull, your eyes, is God. Seriously. Stop fucking around and notice it. Realize what you are.

< 3 

no homo tho

Edited August 20, 2018 by Rinne

[fluidmonolith]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, from your current POV and level of consciousness. that's how it appears.

But what you're missing is the Absolute.

You are assuming the Absolute will just be another relative phenomenon. Except the Absolute is not that. It's Absolute!

"Direct experience" of the Absolute is not like a regular experience. That word "experience" is misleading here. We use that word because you do not have direct consciousness of the Absolute and so it cannot be communicated to you in any other way than to call it "an experience". But it's not really an experience, or a perception, or a thought, or a belief, or knowledge. It's something entirely new which you've never encountered before. And yet it's right there under your nose right this second.

What you're missing is that you have 100% raw direct unmediated access to Absolute Truth, prior to perception or experience.

Because you believe that you exist, this sense of self which you think is real has co-opted the Absolute and recontextualized it as "my experience". Such that the Absolute is right there, but you cannot see it because the ego has managed to convince itself that "this is MY experience". Once the ego is realized to be an illusion, "experience" will be recontextualized into the Absolute.

There actually never was such a thing as "experience" or "perception" or "a human looking at the world". That was the Absolute the whole time, but you didn't realized it because you were so self-absorbed that you mistook the Absolute for "my life, my experience, my perception."

If you could understand what I am saying here, you'd already be enlightened and there would be no need to have this conversation as it would be perfectly obvious to you already.

Can you notice that you are not a human being, but that you are God? It's right there! Look! You're God!

See it?

The thing looking through your skull, your eyes, is God. Seriously. Stop fucking around and notice it. Realize what you are.

Thanks for the response Leo. You are right, I don't see it...yet. I have been working on personal development through self-actualization, contemplation, and introspection for many years now, but non-duality is a new concept to me. Your work here (as well as others, like some of the sages or gurus you've mentioned in your Spiral Dynamics stage turquoise video) has been a big part part of that introduction. Thanks for all of your work here, I appreciate it, and I'm sure many others here do as well.

[SoonHei]

17 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, from your current POV and level of consciousness. that's how it appears.

But what you're missing is the Absolute.

You are assuming the Absolute will just be another relative phenomenon. Except the Absolute is not that. It's Absolute!

"Direct experience" of the Absolute is not like a regular experience. That word "experience" is misleading here. We use that word because you do not have direct consciousness of the Absolute and so it cannot be communicated to you in any other way than to call it "an experience". But it's not really an experience, or a perception, or a thought, or a belief, or knowledge. It's something entirely new which you've never encountered before. And yet it's right there under your nose right this second.

What you're missing is that you have 100% raw direct unmediated access to Absolute Truth, prior to perception or experience.

Because you believe that you exist, this sense of self which you think is real has co-opted the Absolute and recontextualized it as "my experience". Such that the Absolute is right there, but you cannot see it because the ego has managed to convince itself that "this is MY experience". Once the ego is realized to be an illusion, "experience" will be recontextualized into the Absolute.

There actually never was such a thing as "experience" or "perception" or "a human looking at the world". That was the Absolute the whole time, but you didn't realized it because you were so self-absorbed that you mistook the Absolute for "my life, my experience, my perception."

If you could understand what I am saying here, you'd already be enlightened and there would be no need to have this conversation as it would be perfectly obvious to you already.

Can you notice that you are not a human being, but that you are God? It's right there! Look! You're God!

See it?

The thing looking through your skull, your eyes, is God. Seriously. Stop fucking around and notice it. Realize what you are.

@Leo Gura Very Powerful. Thank you! <3

 

 

 

 

But it's not really an experience, or a perception, or a thought, or a belief, or knowledge. It's something entirely new which you've never encountered before. And yet it's right there under your nose right this second.

What you're missing is that you have 100% raw direct unmediated access to Absolute Truth, prior to perception or experience.

Because you believe that you exist, this sense of self which you think is real has co-opted the Absolute and recontextualized it as "my experience". Such that the Absolute is right there, but you cannot see it because the ego has managed to convince itself that "this is MY experience". Once the ego is realized to be an illusion, "experience" will be recontextualized into the Absolute.

 

 

THANK YOU

[Edvard]

On 11.8.2018 at 9:51 PM, Leo Gura said:

Just more fantasy.

Skepticism is part of the dream.

And you never will. That's the point.

The mind is not capable of getting this because it is the cause of the dream.

You cannot speculate about spirituality. You must do the practices, whether than be 5-MeO or yoga or meditation, etc.

It is not possible to overcome a lack of direct experience with thinking. You see that?

Which means that you don't understand it either, because the mind is everything you can understand with, to form ideas with. You hold enlightenment as a concept right now in your mind. You reduce it to «showing» that it's all a dream and that it's not materialism - all concepts of the mind - ideologies. Ideas about reality is not unappropiate, but your assertiveness makes this ideological, in in my opinion an unhealthy way. You fundamentally know nothing, same is with me. Well, one step further than Descartes - you know that you are. 

[Flammable]

On 8/19/2018 at 11:16 PM, Leo Gura said:

 

What you're missing is that you have 100% raw direct unmediated access to Absolute Truth, prior to perception or experience.

Because you believe that you exist, this sense of self which you think is real has co-opted the Absolute and recontextualized it as "my experience". Such that the Absolute is right there, but you cannot see it because the ego has managed to convince itself that "this is MY experience". Once the ego is realized to be an illusion, "experience" will be recontextualized into the Absolute.

There actually never was such a thing as "experience" or "perception" or "a human looking at the world". That was the Absolute the whole time, but you didn't realized it because you were so self-absorbed that you mistook the Absolute for "my life, my experience, my perception."

 

Really good pointer here @Leo Gura  Thanks!

[Leo Gura]

@Edvard Don't think for a second that your egotistical bullshit is fooling anyone here.

You are full of shit and it's obvious as day.

If you are going to be here, open your mind and be ready to learn from those who are way more experienced than you.

[Nahm]

It’s the World Cup Final, and a man makes his way to his seat right next to the pitch. He sits down, noticing that the seat next to him is empty. He leans over and asks his neighbour if someone will be sitting there. ‘No,’ says the neighbour. ‘The seat is empty.’ ‘This is incredible,’ said the man. ‘Who in their right mind would have a seat like this for the Final and not use it?’ The neighbour says, ‘Well actually the seat belongs to me. I was supposed to come with my wife, but she passed away. This is the first World Cup Final we haven’t been to together since we got married.’ ‘Oh, I’m so sorry to hear that. That’s terrible….But couldn’t you find someone else, a friend, relative or even a neighbour to take her seat?’ The man shakes his head. ‘No,’ he says. ‘They’re all at the funeral’.

 

 

 

 

 

Laughter!

 

(That empty, thoughtless space, between the joke, and the laughter, is where the understanding occurred.)

Where Infinite Humor resides.

[Truth Addict]

On 11/08/2018 at 11:59 PM, Leo Gura said:

No, you are making this false evaluation from inside the dream.

I am speaking to you of truths which lie outside the dream which you cannot fathom because you have never exited the dream.

Any ideas you have about 5-MeO are wrong. It's just that simple.

You cannot outthink awakening.

You are still not grasping that anything your mind thinks is untrue.

Could it be that 5-MeO creates another dream parallel to the original one?

[Forestluv]

6 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

Could it be that 5-MeO creates another dream parallel to the original one?

IME, on lower doses there, the context still has some dream component. It's like being rocketed up to high Yellow and Turquoise. 

I've tried to push the dose higher beyond that. My first two attempts I blacked out when I left all dream state. The third attempt I went to absolute nothing. A null void. 

[Edvard]

13 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Edvard Don't think for a second that your egotistical bullshit is fooling anyone here.

You are full of shit and it's obvious as day.

If you are going to be here, open your mind and be ready to learn from those who are way more experienced than you.

Donald Trump is more "experienced" than you, so why don't you shut up and listen to him, if experience is all you care about. Have an open mind and be ready to learn from people and listen to perspectives. Maybe you don't believe in arguments or logic, in which case there is nothing to discuss anyway. I was sincere, and if that wasn't obvious as day, then tell me why. If it's self-evident, then why even point it out?