How exactly does 5-MEO contradict the Materialist Pradigm?

[MM1988]

All the other objections about are Materialism that are brought up are valid in my opinion. But here is what I dont get when Leo talks about a materialist taking 5-MEO and realizing within 15 minutes that materialism is false. 

If you assume that Materialism is true and the brain creates consciousness that means the brain can create and hallucinate everything it wants, I dont see a contradiction there with psychedelic or awakening experience.

Lets consider this computer analogy. If you compare consciousness to a computer program and the brain to the hardware with a substance like 5-MEO  you have basically unlimited access to the hardware. You could construct a processor that will calculate 1+1=3 and the software will see no problem with that. You could implant all the stuff Leo talks about into the hardware and the person will think and act like he is enlightened. And from an outsider perspective you would see no difference. How do you know the difference between Sadhguru and a Schizophrenic? You dont. How do you know you are not inducing psychosis in yourself with all these techniques and psychedelics?

The fact is nothing that ever contradicts materialism is in my personal experience yet even though I try to get these experiences. I dont think a psychedelic or awakening experience will do that for me though.

[Leo Gura]

You are inside a dream. All of your ideas about reality are fantasies inside this dream. Science and reason are fantasy.

Every objection or thought you have is fantasy.

Anything you type on that keyboard is fantasy.

Any ideas you have about 5-MeO are fantasy.

You cannot escape this dream by thinking. Nor can you imagine what lies outside the dream.

5-MeO takes you out of the dream. You will not understand how it is possible, but it is.

[MM1988]

@Leo Gura What about this analogy.

What if you watch the Matrix with the thought in the back of your head that Neo is getting more and more psychotic and deluded the longer the movie runs, There is no bigger reality he ever wakes up to. Or what if the premise is still true and this bigger reality exists but Neo never awakens and just becomes more and more insane while still being inside the matrix? How would you ever know the difference from Neos perspective?

[MM1988]

@DrMobius You are right of course but I just could never wrap my head around this issue.

[Enlightenment]

Within your model of the world, you are GOD but are you GOD in the "outside" first order reality, and does it even matter?

[SgtPepper]

Why don't you just try it? 5-meo that is.

materialist paradigm doesn't make sense to me.

9 hours ago, MM1988 said:

If you assume that Materialism is true and the brain creates consciousness that means the brain can create and hallucinate everything it wants, I dont see a contradiction there with psychedelic or awakening experience.

How does the brain create consciousness, if the brain exists within consciousness?

I don't really feel like a software program is analogous to consciousness, it's more analogues to your sensory experience whereas hardware is the physical components of those experiences. The sensory experience is not consciousness itself, although its made of consciousness, its happening within awareness/consciousness.

I assume you confusing are consciousness with actual sensory information, but you gotta question where that sensory information is taking place... Even if you do believe in materialism, consider how everything comes from within you or within the brain. The brain is creating its sensory experience and the external world, but because that is literally grounded in nothing, its almost a circular experience and can be concluded as an illusion or dream because there's no ground!

The materialist paradigm fails at conceptualizing consciousness because it is literally empty, boundless, "space". 

If you have a deep psychedelic experience, you will see the contents within consciousness "space" such as sensory experience is akin to an illusion, you will actually sense that nothingness within your sensory experience and come to realize it is as real as a dream experiences - because its all consciousness.

hence why Leo says that reality = fantasy, Life = Death, because it actually infused within one another. Like yin-yang.

 

Edited August 11, 2018 by SgtPepper
elaboration

[Leo Gura]

7 hours ago, MM1988 said:

@Leo Gura What about this analogy.

What if you watch the Matrix with the thought in the back of your head that Neo is getting more and more psychotic and deluded the longer the movie runs, There is no bigger reality he ever wakes up to. Or what if the premise is still true and this bigger reality exists but Neo never awakens and just becomes more and more insane while still being inside the matrix? How would you ever know the difference from Neos perspective?

Just more fantasy.

Skepticism is part of the dream.

7 hours ago, MM1988 said:

@DrMobius but I just could never wrap my head around this issue.

And you never will. That's the point.

The mind is not capable of getting this because it is the cause of the dream.

You cannot speculate about spirituality. You must do the practices, whether than be 5-MeO or yoga or meditation, etc.

It is not possible to overcome a lack of direct experience with thinking. You see that?

[mp22]

"

5-MeO takes you out of the dream. You will not understand how it is possible, but it is."

 

5-MeO is something that is also in the dream.

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, mp22 said:

5-MeO is something that is also in the dream.

Nevertheless, it takes you out of the dream.

It is the dream which ends the dream. Which is a very unique capacity. It is the true Red Pill.

[mp22]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You are inside a dream. All of your ideas about reality are fantasies inside this dream. Science and reason are fantasy.

Every objection or thought you have is fantasy.

Anything you type on that keyboard is fantasy.

Any ideas you have about 5-MeO are fantasy.

You cannot escape this dream by thinking. Nor can you imagine what lies outside the dream.

5-MeO takes you out of the dream. You will not understand how it is possible, but it is.

5-MeO is something that is also in the dream. You question all other things because they're in the dream except for 5-MeO.

 

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

Nevertheless, it takes you out of the dream.

It is the dream which ends the dream. Which is a very unique capacity.

Yes, but you decided that rather arbitrarily because of the amazing high you got.  You dismiss many things  precisely because they are part of the dream except this one thing (along with a couple of other psychedelics). 

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, mp22 said:

Yes, but you decided that rather arbitrarily because of the amazing high you got.  You dismiss many things  precisely because they are part of the dream except this one thing (along with a couple of other psychedelics). 

No, you are making this false evaluation from inside the dream.

I am speaking to you of truths which lie outside the dream which you cannot fathom because you have never exited the dream.

Any ideas you have about 5-MeO are wrong. It's just that simple.

You cannot outthink awakening.

You are still not grasping that anything your mind thinks is untrue.

[Scholar]

I have the same problem, and I cannot wrap my mind around it either.

Let's assume the materialist position, that an outside world exists and that a brain is generating consciousness:

If that is true, every idea I have, every impression of reality I have, is nothing but an illusion created by the brain. Though the problem here is that this illusion includes all impressions and ideas of the brain I have as well! Everything I believe about reality is nothing but a belief, that is the very problem! If I believe that a brain exists, what exactly is happening? I have a thought of a brain, and that thought included that the thought of the brain is created by the brain. That means the thought of the brain cannot be the brain, no matter what thought I will have! Your mind should be absolutely blown at this point, but let's continue. If my thought about the brain is not the brain itself then what the hell is the brain? Any thought I will ever have about the brain can impossibly be the brain. By definition the brain is creating the ideas, so how could the ideas be the same as the brain?

It gets even worse! The brain is made of atoms, but atoms are nothing but an idea in my head as well! If atoms are what is creating my experience, then clearly the idea of atoms that I have are not the atoms, because the atoms are what is generating the idea! What is going on?!

 

It goes further:

Every idea I have about anything is happening in my consciousness, right? It's also true that any experience I have at all is happening in my consciousness as well! But my ideas about consciousness and experiences itself are experiences and ideas themselves! They clearly are not consciousness, but how is it possible that I can even have a thought about consciousness? Why can I think about anything, and what does thinking about anything even mean?

At this point I am utterly confused. It seems like it's the limit of the mind, but the problem is that the limit of the mind is just another idea in the mind! This goes on and on!

 

It's like I am generating a fatal error in my own programming. Can you see it too?

Edited August 11, 2018 by Scholar

[mp22]

P

35 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No, you are making this false evaluation from inside the dream.

I am speaking to you of truths which lie outside the dream which you cannot fathom because you have never exited the dream.

Any ideas you have about 5-MeO are wrong. It's just that simple.

You cannot outthink awakening.

You are still not grasping that anything your mind thinks is untrue.

Perhaps, although what I think I am saying is that you are also within the drean using a substance that is a also in the dream (and therefore by your logic cannot be true).  Basically from within the dream you think you exited the dream but you have not.  btw other people have taken 5MEO and reported back on this very site with different experiences from yours.  So who's right?

[Scholar]

13 minutes ago, mp22 said:

P

Perhaps, although what I think I am saying is that you are also within the drean using a substance that is a also in the dream (and therefore by your logic cannot be true).  Basically from within the dream you think you exited the dream but you have not.  btw other people have taken 5MEO and reported back on this very site with different experiences from yours.  So who's right?

Nobody is right is the point he is making I think.

 

Imagine if you have slept your entire life, you never woke up, and your entire life you were literally dreaming. In your dream a person would come to you and tell you about how you are dreaming. Would you possibly be capable of understanding what dreaming is, or what waking up means?

And did ever something happen in your dream that actually made you wake up?

Edited August 11, 2018 by Scholar

[Leo Gura]

20 minutes ago, mp22 said:

Perhaps, although what I think I am saying is that you are also within the drean using a substance that is a also in the dream (and therefore by your logic cannot be true).  Basically from within the dream you think you exited the dream but you have not.  btw other people have taken 5MEO and reported back on this very site with different experiences from yours.  So who's right?

The difference is I have ACTUALLY exited the dream and become the Absolute. You have not. So you are wrong.

Yes, this may seem arrogant to you, but nevertheless, it is true. And there is no way you will know if I am right until you yourself awaken. At which point you will clearly know the Absolute Truth, but you will be unable to communicate it to anyone else, and you find yourself precisely in my shoes, trying to explain awakening to the unawakened, who just cannot get it because they deeply underestimate what reality is.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Scholar said:

I have the same problem, and I cannot wrap my mind around it either.

Let's assume the materialist position, that an outside world exists and that a brain is generating consciousness:

If that is true, every idea I have, every impression of reality I have, is nothing but an illusion created by the brain. Though the problem here is that this illusion includes all impressions and ideas of the brain I have as well! Everything I believe about reality is nothing but a belief, that is the very problem! If I believe that a brain exists, what exactly is happening? I have a thought of a brain, and that thought included that the thought of the brain is created by the brain. That means the thought of the brain cannot be the brain, no matter what thought I will have! Your mind should be absolutely blown at this point, but let's continue. If my thought about the brain is not the brain itself then what the hell is the brain? Any thought I will ever have about the brain can impossibly be the brain. By definition the brain is creating the ideas, so how could the ideas be the same as the brain?

It gets even worse! The brain is made of atoms, but atoms are nothing but an idea in my head as well! If atoms are what is creating my experience, then clearly the idea of atoms that I have are not the atoms, because the atoms are what is generating the idea! What is going on?!

It goes further:

Every idea I have about anything is happening in my consciousness, right? It's also true that any experience I have at all is happening in my consciousness as well! But my ideas about consciousness and experiences itself are experiences and ideas themselves! They clearly are not consciousness, but how is it possible that I can even have a thought about consciousness? Why can I think about anything, and what does thinking about anything even mean?

At this point I am utterly confused. It seems like it's the limit of the mind, but the problem is that the limit of the mind is just another idea in the mind! This goes on and on!

It's like I am generating a fatal error in my own programming. Can you see it too?

Yes! Very good!

What you are starting to catch onto there is that everything you call reality is a conceptual fabrication. If you keep questioning deeper you will evetually realize that "physical reality" itself is just an idea, "my birth" is also just an idea, "my life" is also just an idea, "other people" is also just an idea. At which point reality will collapse and you die. That is awakening.

After you peel back every layer of the onion what you will discover at the very center is Emptiness. That's the True Self.

[mp22]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

The difference is I have ACTUALLY exited the dream and become the Absolute. You have not. So you are wrong.

Yes, this may seem arrogant to you, but nevertheless, it is true. And there is no way you will know if I am right until you yourself awaken. At which point you will clearly know the Absolute Truth, but you will be unable to communicate it to anyone else, and you find yourself precisely in my shoes, trying to explain awakening to the unawakened.

Fine, I will grant you that. Can you at least agree with me that it is possible for someone to hallucinate and believe they existed the dream via the use of mind-altering substances (and some prep work)?

 

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, mp22 said:

Fine, I will grant you that. Can you at least agree with me that it is possible for someone to hallucinate and believe they existed the dream via the use of mind-altering substances (and some prep work)?

Everything is a hallucination at all times.

Yes, you can delude yourself into believing all sorts of things using any kind of methods, so it's a rather moot point.

It would be a delusion to assume that psychedelics increase your chances of delusion. You are at max delusion "sober". But, yes, you can still be deluded under psychedelics.

[SoonHei]

This thread was a good mind fuck

Thanks all <3

 

[cirkussmile]

Who cares about experiences? 

I have met many people who have done hundreds of 5meo trips but they still can’t live from stillness and peace.

It’s not about seeing reality, it’s about how you live it. How to live consciously continuously. People seem to miss this small detail which leads to liberation.