No way, as way, to headlessness

[tsuki]

1 hour ago, robdl said:

I'm not sure if I'm following but let's use another example like desire and fear.  In the duality of mind, there's fear vs. desire.  They're discrete opposites (like "yes" and "no" are in mind).  But in unconditional awareness, the movement of desire and fear is unitary --- they're one and the same movement (of thought-self).  So you could say at that level of awareness, it can't be labelled as fear or desire, and yet somehow it is both simultaneously --- as if the original distinction between the two completely dissolved.

@robdl @Faceless Let's pick this apart. But first, let me get back to my original question:

What is neither [yes], nor [no], and yet it feels as if it is both [yes] and [no] at the same time?

In the 'conditioned mind' there is the duality of fear vs desire. 
In the 'unconditioned mind', the duality of fear and desire is unitary.
To this 'unconditioned mind', it is not that it is either fear, or desire, but that it is both and neither.
To the 'unconditioned mind', it is not that it is either fear, or desire, but that fear = desire.

So, as we observe the 'unconditioned mind', we can see that it introduces the third 'choice' (choice here being a special word denoted with apostrophes).
To the unconditioned mind, there is yes, there is no, and there is yes=no.

Here, I am denoting 'choice' as a special word, as for you, the word choice denotes the movement of the conditioned mind.
The unconditioned mind, however, sees yes and no as not free.
The unconditioned mind, then rejects yes and no on the basis of freedom and pursues the yes=no.
This is the nature of infinite/sacred creativity.

This infinite/sacred creativity is still conditioned in the sense, that it always rejects the [yes and no] and turns [yes=no].
Not because there is a reason to reject them, but because it rejects reasons.
The movement of infinite creativity is not a no-mind state, but an anti-mind state.
The conditioned mind is bound by reason, and the unconditioned mind is, paradoxically, bound by no reason.

The unconditioned mind is still a conditioned mind, but flipped upside-down.
 

Edited August 9, 2018 by tsuki

[who chit]

4 minutes ago, robdl said:

Aversion/escape: movement away from "what-is."

Desire/seeking: movement away from "what-is."

 

 

 

When I say 'relatively" it is to say, In the relative/dualistic, there are the conceptual labels/distinctions of aversion/desire.
In the unconditioned unmoving,there's just the perceiving of movement. It's what is happening in that moment.
 

[robdl]

1 minute ago, who chit said:

 

When I say 'relatively" it is to say, In the relative/dualistic, there are the conceptual labels/distinctions of aversion/desire.
In the unconditioned unmoving,there's just the perceiving of movement. It's what is happening in that moment.
 

Indeed

[tsuki]

1 hour ago, Faceless said:

I understand my friend, but when this ending of the veil is actualized, no pointing is any longer necessary. 

@Faceless Necessity is not the reason for action. You are not bound by necessity, and yet - you still do things.

That is precisely the point.

[tsuki]

7 minutes ago, tsuki said:

The conditioned mind is bound by reason, and the unconditioned mind is, paradoxically, bound by no reason.

@robdl The unconditioned mind is not bound by no reason for a reason. It is bound by no reason for no reason.

[Faceless]

 

We all know what intellectualization implies, ?but here we go for kicks anyways.

 

That boundary or paradox (bound by no reason) seems to be a manifestation of measure-reason, which is an expression of the inherently selective mind-(thought-thinker), that is programmed to go beyond its self imposed limit to capture that which is whole(unlimited). 

But when the limit of reason ceases to act as the determining limit,(no thinker), so does that limitation. No bondage to measure, No limit, no boundary.

That’s what thought does, it sets limits then perpetually attempts to go beyond them. Seems the unconditioned mind is not bound by no-reason, but is unbound by the that which bounds; polarity of the opposites(the chooser). Limitation then becomes limpid; free of the that which darkens, hinders, obstructs, and therefore is clear, unrestrained; or infinitely versatile. 

The unconditioned mind is not bound nor unbound, by either or, this or that, or any movement of opposition for that matter. Only a conditioned mind seems to place such limits, conditions, and boundaries, due to its calculating nature and structure, as that is its very function. 

All things; that in which the mind labels,“things”, are conditioned. Also we could say that LIFE itself is conditioned; a interrelationship of mutual interdependence. In this sense yes conditions are law. Life is relationship and everything depends on something else. As is the particular and universal mind. Conditions are absolutely a must indeed. ?

But I wouldn’t say the unconditioned mind is flipped upside-down, as that implies its opposite, also an indication that the mind has once again placed its usual pattern of duality, being one ☝️ of its limits. Neither would I conclude with any certainty that the mind is closer to being (flipped inside out), although that does seem to make more sense from what has been witnessed without the veil of the witnesser, which in my case is an actual everyday occurrence. I would still have to negate that statement and conclude with uncertainty that it would most likely implode in on itself into nothing? but ??‍♂️

You see we can play this game of playing with form all we want, but the simple fact remains, until the mind ceases to project the veil of itself all this talk remains a symptom of the conditioned mind. 

Contemplation; being the movement of thought, will never capture the infinite nature of that which is revealed when all measure, (experience, knowledge, memory), ends as (the i). 

We can play hide and seek with ourselves and self perpetuate this movement of measure,(the self), everlastingly, but we all know deep down that that wall of limitation is on the horizon. 

 

This I admit was quite an rant, and I must say, such a delightful waste of time. ?

Thanks for sharing tsuki, always a pleasure indeed. I appreciate it??....great chance for writing practice. That always can use some cultivation. 

Also @robdl, @who chit, @SoonHei, @Saumaya, @Victor Mgazi, @Arkandeus, I really appreciate your guys responses. Nice to communicate our interests with one another. ?

                        ??

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2018 by Faceless

[Saumaya]

46 minutes ago, Faceless said:

 

 

This I admit was quite an rant, and I must say, such a delightful waste of time. ?

Also @robdl, @who chit, @SoonHei, @Saumaya, @Victor Mgazi, @Arkandeus

 

 

 

I always feel that way when I write something big. It's actually best to write out your thoughts and get it out of your system, the more you do this, the more you'll stop feeling a need to talk about that specific topic. It's actually really interesting.

[Faceless]

2 minutes ago, Saumaya said:

I always feel that way when I write something big. It's actually best to write out your thoughts and get it out of your system, the more you do this, the more you'll stop feeling a need to talk about that specific topic. It's actually really interesting.

[Faceless]

8 minutes ago, Saumaya said:

I always feel that way when I write something big. It's actually best to write out your thoughts and get it out of your system, the more you do this, the more you'll stop feeling a need to talk about that specific topic. It's actually really interesting.

It’s quite strange, most my writing just spills out without even thinking about it. You as well? 

[Saumaya]

3 minutes ago, Faceless said:

It’s quite strange, most my writing just spills out without even thinking about it. You as well? 

Yeah, I don't really pre plan anything, I have a general idea of what I am going to write, but that's it. After that, it just flows out.

[tsuki]

5 hours ago, Faceless said:

We all know what intellectualization implies, ?but here we go for kicks anyways.

@Faceless It is not intellectualization if you are willing to look into it yourself.
The point it not to understand what I write, but to understand what you write, by reading your own writing.
It is not 'a point' for any reason in particular that seeks better circumstances.
It is only in the unconditioned mind that rejects reasons that growth is rejected because it implies something else.
One can still grow for no reason, even if there is nowhere to grow.
Just as there is dynamic stillness, there is also constant growth that does not imply change.

5 hours ago, Faceless said:

That boundary or paradox (bound by no reason) seems to be a manifestation of measure-reason, which is an expression of the inherently selective mind-(thought-thinker), that is programmed to go beyond its self imposed limit to capture that which is whole(unlimited). 

Paradox is what the 'conditioned mind' is always-rejecting. It is the 'vs' that constitutes the difference between yes and no.
Paradox is what the 'unconditioned mind' is always-accepting. It is the '=' what constitutes the unity of yes and no.

5 hours ago, Faceless said:

But when the limit of reason ceases to act as the determining limit,(no thinker), so does that limitation. No bondage to measure, No limit, no boundary.

Reason and no-reason are not mutually exclusive.
They are the mirror image of one another.
By turning reason inside-out, you do not abolish reason.
You just turn limit into limitlessness, which is a constant state of anti-reason.
To the mind that is bound by reason, the reason is not a limit.
To the mind that is bound by no reason, the reason is a limit.

5 hours ago, Faceless said:

The unconditioned mind is not bound nor unbound, by either or, this or that, or any movement of opposition for that matter. Only a conditioned mind seems to place such limits, conditions, and boundaries, due to its calculating nature and structure, as that is its very function. 

The unconditioned mind is defined in opposition to the conditioned mind.
The conditioned mind sees what itself does and transcends its own limit by flipping inside-out.
As far as I can recall, you mentioned that your son has started to build his head.
How is it possible to turn headful from headless? This is the same movement of flipping inside-out.

5 hours ago, Faceless said:

But I wouldn’t say the unconditioned mind is flipped upside-down, as that implies its opposite, also an indication that the mind has once again placed its usual pattern of duality, being one ☝️ of its limits. Neither would I conclude with any certainty that the mind is closer to being (flipped inside out), although that does seem to make more sense from what has been witnessed without the veil of the witnesser, which in my case is an actual everyday occurrence. I would still have to negate that statement and conclude with uncertainty that it would most likely implode in on itself into nothing? but ??‍♂️

This flipping movement that annihilates the mind into nothing is what constitutes infinite creativity.
That is, however established only on the basis of actual understanding of the workings of the mind.
It is possible to flip inside-out this very flipping by careful inspection of what it does.
Inquire into that, friend.

5 hours ago, Faceless said:

You see we can play this game of playing with form all we want, but the simple fact remains, until the mind ceases to project the veil of itself all this talk remains a symptom of the conditioned mind. 

The conditioned mind is not a disease to be cured that produces symptoms.
It is co-present within the unconditioned mind.
The only difficulty is to see its annihilated nature.

5 hours ago, Faceless said:

We can play hide and seek with ourselves and self perpetuate this movement of measure,(the self), everlastingly, but we all know deep down that that wall of limitation is on the horizon. 

It is not a movement of measure. You only see it as a movement of measure because you treat the movement of measure as a symptom of the conditioned mind to be cured.
Can you see how the unconditioned mind sees the conditioning everywhere?
It is the compulsive seeking of conditioning for no particular reason.
And it is content with having no reason for it.

You may call my post the movement of measure only because the no-mind sees it.
It is not something bad. It is something to be aware of, for no particular reason.
Language is not dualistic. The no-mind is bound by duality between duality and non-duality.

5 hours ago, Faceless said:

Thanks for sharing tsuki, always a pleasure indeed. I appreciate it??....great chance for writing practice. That always can use some cultivation.

Treat it as a chance to self-inquire into the nature of headlessness.
A state that has no nature is a state defined in opposition to nature.
The annihilated-mind feeds off this flipping. See it for yourself.

This, and thank you for your open-annihilated-mindedness .

Edited August 10, 2018 by tsuki

[tsuki]

4 hours ago, Saumaya said:

I always feel that way when I write something big. It's actually best to write out your thoughts and get it out of your system, the more you do this, the more you'll stop feeling a need to talk about that specific topic. It's actually really interesting.

@Saumaya @Faceless This is the nature of infinite creativity.
It produces knowledge 'out of nowhere' and then, as you write it, it understands the conditioned parts of it.
In seeing of its own conditioning by inspecting its own writing, it becomes more aware of the conditioning.
That is why creativity deepens as you write.

In a sense - it becomes its own fuel. This is how infinite creativity works.
It is a positive feedback loop. This is the nature of boudlessness.
See my signature.

Edited August 10, 2018 by tsuki

[Faceless]

2 hours ago, tsuki said:

It is not intellectualization if you are willing to look into it yourself.

That’s perhaps my greatest strength lol. 

The intellectualization remark was a jk?

2 hours ago, tsuki said:

It is only in the unconditioned mind that rejects reasons 

There is no rejection as in reaction. Actually the unconditioned mind doesn’t react-act as so. This is what I mean by not moving positively of negatively. There is no rejection-accepting.

2 hours ago, tsuki said:

that growth is rejected because it implies something else.
One can still grow for no reason, even if there is nowhere to grow.

Of course growth is life. I’m not opposed to this of course. I just don’t feed the “psychological monkey.” To me growth psychologically is obviously a nourisher of reaction-action. A preventer of headlessness. 

2 hours ago, tsuki said:

Reason and no-reason are not mutually exclusive.

I understand this. Exclusion both are able to co-exist and do.

2 hours ago, tsuki said:

How is it possible to turn headful from headless? This is the same movement of flipping inside-out.

No, I would say not. There must be a cessation of the fuel that perpetuates (fullness) being action-reaction, the chooser. 

2 hours ago, tsuki said:

This flipping movement that annihilates the mind into nothing is what constitutes infinite creativity.
That is, however established only on the basis of actual understanding of the workings of the mind.
It is possible to flip inside-out this very flipping by careful inspection of what it does.
Inquire into that, friend.

This is what I do mostly. Understanding and applied passive awareness which allows for a mush more deep rooted understanding, and which also makes for a much more extensive unaltered awareness. I would say the understanding of mind and awareness of mind is rather simple to me now. But there is always an increase holistic understanding and awareness. This I see as being an ongoing process. 

 

2 hours ago, tsuki said:

Paradox is what the 'conditioned mind' is always-rejecting. It is the 'vs' that constitutes the difference between yes and no.
Paradox is what the 'unconditioned mind' is always-accepting. It is the '=' what constitutes the unity of yes and no.

I don’t see it like that. From the place of passive attention, the unconditioned mind neither accepts or rejects. That’s how there is this non-contributing to the reactive-active movement of thought. In this there is no perpetuation of response that further initiates fear, which causes increased registration-recording, which is then recollected, and projected. As I see it the conditioned mind rejects and accepts. This is the fuel that nourishes time, (projection of experience, knowledge, memory).

 

2 hours ago, tsuki said:

Reason and no-reason are not mutually exclusive.
They are the mirror image of one another.

Indeed so.

2 hours ago, tsuki said:

By turning reason inside-out, you do not abolish reason.

I understand this as well. I am aware of this. There is no action in either direction. There is actually no action being taken.

2 hours ago, tsuki said:

To the mind that is bound by reason, the reason is not a limit.

again there is no action in either direction being initiated. Do you see what I mean? I don’t see no reason as a limit.

Also, I don’t see limitation as symptom in a bad way. It is just a function. ?

 

2 hours ago, tsuki said:

The conditioned mind is not a disease to be cured that produces symptoms.
It is co-present within the unconditioned mind.
The only difficulty is to see its annihilated nature.

I used symptom when could have used product. Lol I didn’t mean symptom as in diseased. And yes I agree the conditioned mind is co-present within the unconditioned mind. I have talked about this but in terms of consciousness. The conditioned consciousness being co-preset in the unconditioned consciousness....And yes to see the annihilated nature of mind takes a willingness to welcome and embrace extreme  fear. To commune with fear in relationship. To embrace it if you will.

2 hours ago, tsuki said:

It is not a movement of measure. You only see it as a movement of measure because you treat the movement of measure as a symptom of the conditioned mind to be cured.

no what I mean by measure is thought itself. We are using measure right now. All thought is measure. That’s what I mean. Contemplation has its place, but thought itself is a conditioned response of limitation. So anything it response with will be finite, limited. I also see the conditioned mind as a function within the unconditioned mind. It is only when we seek psychological security in this function that I see it as being unhealthy. 

2 hours ago, tsuki said:

Can you see how the unconditioned mind sees the conditioning everywhere?
It is the compulsive seeking of conditioning for no particular reason.
And it is content with having no reason for it.

You may call my post the movement of measure only because the no-mind sees it.
It is not something bad. It is something to be aware of, for no particular reason.
Language is not dualistic. The no-mind is bound by duality between duality and non-duality.

What I’m saying is thought conditions the mind and the mind perpetuates that conditioning with its own movement. Thought is conditioned-dualistic, and we are conditioned to that stream itself. Mind and no-mind are both one and the same movement of mind. But any movement of thought implies measure. We will have to go into this more. 

 

2 hours ago, tsuki said:

Treat it as a chance to self-inquire into the nature of headlessness.

definitely, deep headlessness is a difficult thing to inquire into though. There is not really any recollection of the time frame spent without a head. Also this only comes about with the sustained passive attention-awareness of all movement inward-outward. This headlessness is totally unpremeditated. There is no memory recording in this happening. I can only inquire very partially, which I have shared already. Again there is no (content in time) to recollect. 

It is quite difficult to explain. I can inquire before headlessness, but when I am no longer present, (no head) there is no more inquiry. It’s something else friend. 

2 hours ago, tsuki said:

and thank you for your open-annihilated-mindedness .

you as well, buddy??

Edited August 10, 2018 by Faceless

[tsuki]

@Faceless Are you going to address this post?

Can the movement that passively 'feeds off' be observed?
Try reading your own posts and observe as you become 'disinterested' in them.
Can you (passively) observe this passive observation of dualities in the text?
This passive observation of duality is what effortlessly 'disarms' them so that they do not attract and form knowledge.

1 hour ago, Faceless said:

What I’m saying is thought conditions the mind and the mind perpetuates that conditioning with its own movement. Thought is conditioned-dualistic, and we are conditioned to that stream itself. Mind and no-mind are both one and the same movement of mind. But any movement of thought implies measure. We will have to go into this more

How about this then:

As you read this text in which I'm describing the disarming movement, this very movement is what disarms what I'm describing.
Storing knowledge that starts the thought 'for good' is impossible because whatever is perceived is being disarmed, even this very text.
This balance between construction of meaning (thought) and destruction of meaning (insight) is what keeps the balance.
As I have described this very movement by introducing meaning to it, it disarms it and becomes 'stronger'.
Stronger in the sense that it can now see through itself and becomes something else, unknown to itself.
It is impossible to tell whether this movement is in fact still, or in motion.
It perpetuates its own operation by negation of meaning. In this sense it is like conditioned mind, but opposite in nature.
This is the root of dynamic stillness. Creation and annihilation of meaning through inattentive observation.
This is the nature of infinite creativity.

Try describing it yourself and observe yourself as you do it.
You have to observe the text and observe the observer at the same time.

[Faceless]

@tsuki

this is interesting what you are saying, although different then what I am referring to. When I speak of creative movement, I am speaking of (at essence). 

There is an actualized absense of registration, recollection, identification. And this is sustained in long intervals now. As actualized phenomena-experiencing-non experiencing. 

 

 I’m finding it difficult to fully see what your saying right now. I will keep coming back and observe your posts though. I have a feeling we are referring to something different. But I see your posts as particularly interesting when it comes to writing and sharing-expression. 

Again let me read some more posts and see if I can get what you are getting at. ??

Edited August 10, 2018 by Faceless

[Faceless]

You should start a thread that goes into this. 

Edited August 10, 2018 by Faceless

[who chit]

2 hours ago, Faceless said:

@tsuki

this is interesting what you are saying, although different then what I am referring to. When I speak of creative movement, I am speaking of (at essence). 

There is an actualized absense of registration, recollection, identification. And this is sustained in long intervals now. As actualized phenomena-experiencing-non experiencing. 

 

 I’m finding it difficult to fully see what your saying right now. I will keep coming back and observe your posts though. I have a feeling we are referring to something different. But I see your posts as particularly interesting when it comes to writing and sharing-expression. 

Again let me read some more posts and see if I can get what you are getting at. ??

I'm taking infinite creativity to mean the same as infinite intelligence.
Is that correct?
 

[Faceless]

16 minutes ago, who chit said:

I'm taking infinite creativity to mean the same as infinite intelligence.
Is that correct?
 

Hmm 

sorry im not very good at interpreting language yet, but when I speak of this creative movement, I mean actual cessation of thought-experiencer. (Experience, knowledge, memory). In this cessation makes for a newness. Like stepping foot on a new world with a totally void mind. 

As in experiencing totally empty of the experiencer and it’s implications (accumulation of time) 

Edited August 10, 2018 by Faceless

[Faceless]

Total ending of psychological accumulation as “the me” 

Creative as in no past accumulation being carried over onto the now. 

(Newness) or (fresh eyes) to observe 

Edited August 10, 2018 by Faceless

[who chit]

8 minutes ago, Faceless said:

Total ending of psychological accumulation as “the me” 

Creative as in no past accumulation being carried over onto the now. 

(Newness) or (fresh eyes) to observe 

Ok. Now I get it
Each arising moment is perceived as a fresh,new moment.