Is Leo vegetarian/vegan?

[Scholar]

17 hours ago, SgtPepper said:

There is to me because I am more attached to dogs than ants. But ants are still sentient beings.

Yeah. Why not? They are conscious after all and care about their own life. You're telling me ants won't feel being cut in half?

 

I do not believe that. I think plants are very conscious and express life differently than mammals. 

 

 

Mussels are alive too. They feed microorganism indicating they have an ego and self-interest. This is actually a controversial thing in the Vegan community.

I do not deny they are conscious or do not feel pain, I think you have a hard time seeing what I am trying to convey to you.

 

And there is no reason to assume that mussels have an experience of life, they do not have a central nervous system. The suffering of mussels, much like the suffering of plants, would be completely unnecessary as they are not as mobile as mammals are. The very reason why we suffer is precisely because we are mobile, because we have the ability to avoid danger immediately. It's not like pain is inherent to nature, pain is simply a tool to communicate to the agent what to avoid. A non-mobile being does not require pain because they cannot avoid anything at all.

 

But yes, I can see why you would have the bias you do, it probably increases your quality of life because, again, you do not need to recognize the unnecessary harm you are causing to your surrounding and to sentient beings who have a far higher capacity for suffering and consciousness than for example insects do. Additionally, if you were worried about insects and plants, you'd have even a bigger reason to go vegan, as animal agriculture consumes and kills more plants and insects than the plant agriculture would do if you directly consumed the plants. Of course the destruction of habitat is significant as well.

 

You are equating intelligence to sentience. Just because a plant can do things does not mean it has an experience of life. The experience of life really is nothing but a tool to react to the surrounding world in real time. By your logic, computers already have an experience of life, as they can do all the things that mussels and plants can do, theoretically.

You can program a robot to avoid lots of things, does that mean the robot is suffering when he does so? It is very ignorant to assume that all life on this planet is structured the same way as we mammals are. Just because we suffer when we die, does not mean a plant does. Just because we suffer when we burn ourselves, does not mean a mussel does. 

 

In fact, when you are in deep sleep you are not sentient at all. There is no experience of life, even though you might still react significantly to your surroundings. Ask yourself this, if you had no memory of anything at all, ever, not even a short term memory, would you be able to experience the world? If every single moment that passes by you would instantly forget, or even better, it would never enter your memory, what would pain really mean to you? You would still react to it, but would you actually experience it as anything at all? It's an interesting question, and it's not obvious at all in my opinion.

Even when your brain is active, it does not mean you are sentient/you have an experience of life. What does that mean for a plant or for an insect?

 

Furthermore, if an insect has consciousness, why do you think your brain is limited to one experience of life? What if different parts of you brain have different, separate experiences of life, with you being the one that experiences thoughts and the ego. What if there are within you multiple beings that communicate with each other. You would never know.

Edited August 13, 2018 by Scholar

[SgtPepper]

2 hours ago, Scholar said:

I do not deny they are conscious or do not feel pain, I think you have a hard time seeing what I am trying to convey to you.

 

2 hours ago, Scholar said:

And there is no reason to assume that mussels have an experience of life, they do not have a central nervous system. The suffering of mussels, much like the suffering of plants, would be completely unnecessary as they are not as mobile as mammals are. The very reason why we suffer is precisely because we are mobile, because we have the ability to avoid danger immediately. It's not like pain is inherent to nature, pain is simply a tool to communicate to the agent what to avoid. A non-mobile being does not require pain because they cannot avoid anything at all.

Doesn't this assume that a central nervous system is the only way to experience life? When its possible life outside of mammals may have other forms of system that allow them to perceive life?

But plants do avoid creatures. They fight against insects all the time. They must be able to detect some sort of negative (in their view) stimulus in order to fight back. I think the fact that plants have some of sort of self-interest indicates an experience of life to me. Why do you not think so? I mean its hard to know exactly since there isn't any science saying that they are sentient in the sense that they experience pain. But there is science suggesting they are conscious, like to grow, can hear, and communicate with other plants.

 

2 hours ago, Scholar said:

But yes, I can see why you would have the bias you do, it probably increases your quality of life because, again, you do not need to recognize the unnecessary harm you are causing to your surrounding and to sentient beings who have a far higher capacity for suffering and consciousness than for example insects do. Additionally, if you were worried about insects and plants, you'd have even a bigger reason to go vegan, as animal agriculture consumes and kills more plants and insects than the plant agriculture would do if you directly consumed the plants. Of course the destruction of habitat is significant as well.

 

You are equating intelligence to sentience. Just because a plant can do things does not mean it has an experience of life. The experience of life really is nothing but a tool to react to the surrounding world in real time. By your logic, computers already have an experience of life, as they can do all the things that mussels and plants can do, theoretically.

You can program a robot to avoid lots of things, does that mean the robot is suffering when he does so? It is very ignorant to assume that all life on this planet is structured the same way as we mammals are. Just because we suffer when we die, does not mean a plant does. Just because we suffer when we burn ourselves, does not mean a mussel does. 

 

In fact, when you are in deep sleep you are not sentient at all. There is no experience of life, even though you might still react significantly to your surroundings. Ask yourself this, if you had no memory of anything at all, ever, not even a short term memory, would you be able to experience the world? If every single moment that passes by you would instantly forget, or even better, it would never enter your memory, what would pain really mean to you? You would still react to it, but would you actually experience it as anything at all? It's an interesting question, and it's not obvious at all in my opinion.

Even when your brain is active, it does not mean you are sentient/you have an experience of life. What does that mean for a plant or for an insect?

 

Furthermore, if an insect has consciousness, why do you think your brain is limited to one experience of life? What if different parts of you brain have different, separate experiences of life, with you being the one that experiences thoughts and the ego. What if there are within you multiple beings that communicate with each other. You would never know.

Although, I do not find the comparison of a computers, plants, and mussels to be a fair one. 

I think you bring up valid points, such as my equating of intelligence to sentience and that Mammals experience life in a more complex manner due to the nervous system and memories.

I do think think there are separate experiences of life within me, I believe bacterias and other cells in general are all different forms of life experiencing the world in their own way. 

However, I still connect more with mammals and I'd say a cow before Id save a colony of ants. But my issue is still the use of synthetic B12 and Omega 3 DHA & EPA. Eating insects is just not an option for me cause I think its gross. Mussels are controversial in the vegan community, but even then, am I suppose to eat mussels on a daily basis? I guess I can eat them like they're vitamins. 

At the moment, I live with my parents, so it is difficult to have the autonomy of what kind of food is in my house, but I am goin to experiment when I have my own place.

I guess my overall point was that everything is life and no matter what, life will be killing life for food. However, correct if im wrong, you're saying that life is different and we should discriminate what we eat because life experiences itself in different ways (ie: mammals have a more complex sensual experience whereas plants do not due to lack of central nervous system including the brain).

 

[ajasatya]

this is why one should avoid beef at all costs nowadays: too much devastation to plant soy just to feed oxen.

if we keep up with our consumption rhythm, the amazon forest will be gone in a few decades

[Scholar]

3 hours ago, SgtPepper said:

 

Doesn't this assume that a central nervous system is the only way to experience life? When its possible life outside of mammals may have other forms of system that allow them to perceive life?

But plants do avoid creatures. They fight against insects all the time. They must be able to detect some sort of negative (in their view) stimulus in order to fight back. I think the fact that plants have some of sort of self-interest indicates an experience of life to me. Why do you not think so? I mean its hard to know exactly since there isn't any science saying that they are sentient in the sense that they experience pain. But there is science suggesting they are conscious, like to grow, can hear, and communicate with other plants.

 

Although, I do not find the comparison of a computers, plants, and mussels to be a fair one. 

I think you bring up valid points, such as my equating of intelligence to sentience and that Mammals experience life in a more complex manner due to the nervous system and memories.

I do think think there are separate experiences of life within me, I believe bacterias and other cells in general are all different forms of life experiencing the world in their own way. 

However, I still connect more with mammals and I'd say a cow before Id save a colony of ants. But my issue is still the use of synthetic B12 and Omega 3 DHA & EPA. Eating insects is just not an option for me cause I think its gross. Mussels are controversial in the vegan community, but even then, am I suppose to eat mussels on a daily basis? I guess I can eat them like they're vitamins. 

At the moment, I live with my parents, so it is difficult to have the autonomy of what kind of food is in my house, but I am goin to experiment when I have my own place.

I guess my overall point was that everything is life and no matter what, life will be killing life for food. However, correct if im wrong, you're saying that life is different and we should discriminate what we eat because life experiences itself in different ways (ie: mammals have a more complex sensual experience whereas plants do not due to lack of central nervous system including the brain).

 

You are right in that we cannot know whether they have an experience of life or not, but there is no reason for us to believe they do. As I said, they do not necessitate an experience of life, everything in a plant, all of it's reactions, can be explained on a simple "chemical reaction" basis. The speed at which plants react to their environment though does imply that they do not experience pain and suffering as we do, even if they did have consciousness. Suffering is all about urgency, and from a plants perspective urgency is very relative. Insects and animals move incredibly fast in comparison to plants, thus we can expect their experience of life to be more vivid and intense. Why would a plant feel terror and doom if it can't really do anything about it's situation? If you look at human beings and the way they suffer, when their life is on the brink of death they usually do not suffer either, because there is no reason for them to suffer. There is nothing they can do about it, just as much as there is nothing a plant can do about an animal eating it.

With the argument of health I would challenge you as well and ask you if you would accept this positions if it was humans dying instead of animals. If let's say you weren't sure whether you had to eat human beings to be healthy, would you actually kill human beings instead of first trying your absolute best at an alternative diet? You don't know whether you will be unhealthy or healthy on a vegan diet, can you justify to yourself to harm other animals unnecessarily because you are not willing to try a vegan diet? Let's go back to the vampire scenario, if there were vampires who would kill and drink humans just because they thought drinking synthetic blood was unhealthy, would you accept their reasoning?

 

From my position I would would need absolute proof to myself that the alternative to killing and eating a mammal it is my death. Otherwise I could make all sorts of excuses without ever trying it. It's kind of similar to killing someone you think is a threat without having any evidence for him actually being a threat. Are your assumptions really enough for you to end that beings life on the basis that you believe it to be unhealthy? It's not like you will just die if you go vegan, if you develop health issues you can just go back to eating your meats or mussels.

[sgn]

@SgtPepper Isn't it easier to just admit you like eating animals and don't care about them enough to stop? Jesus.
Can't we agree on that it's selfish?

Yes people do what they want. But the excuses, omg.

Btw the plants feel pain argument is probably the weakest of them all.

[Thetruthseeker]

@aurum are you vegetarian or vegan? Don’t mind your answer... just wondering. 

 

[aurum]

2 hours ago, Thetruthseeker said:

@aurum are you vegetarian or vegan? Don’t mind your answer... just wondering. 

 

Vegan. I’m not an expert in nutrition but eating vegan just feels much better to me.

I’ve also gotten comments from people since I’ve starting eating this way that I “seem” really healthy. Without them even knowing anything about me. 

Oh, and I have a soft spot for animals.

[Arcangelo]

Hi thread. Leo has a video about this: The trap of projection.

After seeing it you will not give a fuck about him being veggie or not.

 

Arc