I recognised a pattern in my romantic life

[MM1988]

I recognised a pattern in my life. Its comical how it always plays out like that.

1. I meet a girl and befried her, we start texting a lot, she texts me too

2. She comes to my flat alone and even though she never flirted with me I think thats it, I have to make a move now or its platonic forever

3. I lay my arm around her or hold her hand, she usually doesnt react and acts like it doesnt happen. 

4. I accept my rejection, but stay optimistic thinking at least I showed her I want to be more than friends.

5. Shortly after I get the news that she started something with one of my good looking friends.

6. Contact slowsly fizzles out.

This exact thing happened now 7 times to me already. I'm almost 30. Any suggestions? I'm starting to think about not making a move anymore unless I get really obvious signals. I dont know if I fucked up by being to dominant but my guess is that I never had a chance from the beginning.

[Arkandeus]

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. I lay my arm around her or hold her hand, she usually doesnt react and acts like it doesnt happen. 

4. I accept my rejection, but stay optimistic thinking at least I showed her I want to be more than friends.

her not reacting is not a bad sign, that might be a signal that she is comfortable with having your arm around her simply

so it would be good if you explained in detail when you feel rejected, how you come to feel rejected, and why

because this might be a case of self-defeatism

 

for a girl to come to your flat alone I'm not saying its always the case but thats a big red heart that she's open for intimacy with you, so there's something here that needs to be figured out

Edited August 7, 2018 by Arkandeus

[MM1988]

@Arkandeus Because she doesnt show any affection to me in return. I know a girl who would be attracted to me would lean in or touch me too. Usually they just ignore it and go home shortly after, its just an awkward situation all around. Most girls wouldnt go "eww" or are to passive to confront me about not touching her, especially if we are friends. There is just nothing of that sort coming back from them even after I made the first step. I think they just hope I get the message and move on. If she doesnt react positively I just stop right there, no reason to try and kiss her if she doesnt even react positively to a touch.

 

I though her coming to my flat alone is a big sign too, thats where I always get the idea to make a move, but I guess it isnt.

Edited August 7, 2018 by MM1988

[Arkandeus]

for all you know some of these girls might have been too timid or subtle to let on that they're ok with this going further

In my opinion I value a clear "eww" or a  confrontation over having to guess whats going on

 

now I know there's a fine line here, you're with a girl alone, and one should be responsible, I don't want to advise you to push the girl to do anything

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There is just nothing of that sort coming back from them even after I made the first step. I think they just hope I get the message and move on.

this to me is not enough, you think this or that, I'm not saying this is nonsense, its actually very plausible and its comprehensive and thoughtful but,

you do not know what the women is thinking or feeling, she could have all sort of stuff going on even if she seems disinterested and that is from your personal perspective alone

if she doesn't let you know clearly that she doesn't like it or want things to go further you have no idea

im gonna be honest, to me a women not reacting to you putting your arm around her is the opposite of rejection

and her not reacting might just be the sexual tension at work

if a women doesnt like you or isn't attracted to you she's not going to let you put your arm around her for very long, she will throw that arm away or immeditiately confront you, thats in my personal  experience, so to me her not reacting is a big sign that she is ok with it, its subtle

 

now maybe you are used to women giving you clear positive reactions the moment you touch them I do not know

Ive been with women whom I started touching (arm on back or on leg) and they acted for 20min as if nothing was happening, nada, no reaction no comment, and still it turned out they were ok with it and they wanted more

women can be very subtle in my opinion

go in for the kiss or keep touching her, worst case or should I say best case you get a clear rejection, and me I value a clear rejection, it means I communicated my feelings and I got clear feedback from a real person, a real women, not my mind and its mental projections and beliefs

 

on the other hand if you value finding a women with whom you feel clearly from the beginning that she reacts positively to your touch, you're free to do so! each their own desires and dreams

Edited August 7, 2018 by Arkandeus

[MM1988]

@Arkandeus Well this was the situation with the last girl. Let me know what you think. 

She came and sat away from me, so after drinking some wine and talking for a while I said to her to sit near me , she asked "why?" but still did it (I put her glas near me). Then as we talked I touched her back a couple times. She didnt react to it. After a while she stood up. Then I stood up too and we talked further, I touched her back again, no reaction. Then she sat down away from me again and shortly after she said shes going home now.

I mean to me this was a clear sign not to push it any further. Are you 100% sure I should have gone for it? Do you think I might have fucked it up with her now because I wasnt more agressive?

In my opinion these girls are shocked that someone they see as a friend would do that and too socially awkward / passive to say anything. I mean this is like me making basically EVERY step without geting a single sign of interrest back. Is that REALLY how its supposed to happen?

I saw this same girl being very forward with some of my friends, buying them drinks, touching them and begging them to stay etc.

Edited August 7, 2018 by MM1988

[MM1988]

because I got curious I asked one of the previous women Im still friends with and she said she had no interest and would have stopped me if I'd gone further so my intuition was correct.

Edited August 7, 2018 by MM1988

[aurum]

11 hours ago, MM1988 said:

2. She comes to my flat alone and even though she never flirted with me I think thats it, I have to make a move now or its platonic forever

 

Solve your problem before it’s problem. Don’t be the guy who is platonic, platonic, platonic oh wait I have a dick. That sexual tension should already be there, even if you guys are friends.

11 hours ago, MM1988 said:

3. I lay my arm around her or hold her hand, she usually doesnt react and acts like it doesnt happen. 

4. I accept my rejection, but stay optimistic thinking at least I showed her I want to be more than friends.

She didn’t reject you, you rejected yourself.

Expect that you are going to take all the initiative. The fact that she did nothing is more than enough of a green light to keep going in that situation. You can always pull back if you go too far. You gotta shoot your shot man.

 

[Truth]

Can you provide more context?

How are you meeting these girls? What are you texting each other? How are you getting them to come over? What do you guys talk about? Whats your strategy for attracting her/getting her to chase you/curious about you? Why do you think she comes over? 

If she's letting you put your arm around her/ letting you hold her hand then I say that's a sign to go in for the kiss, even if you get rejected. If she rejects you that is 100% okay. just be honest with her and tell her you just had to know/find out if she was into you. Don't be weird about it, be cool with it. And hell, she may even give you another chance, especially if you're still talking and texting each other and she still wants to hang out again. 

[Arkandeus]

@MM1988

as aurum said you might have self-rejected, you did so in my opinion

 

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because I got curious I asked one of the previous women Im still friends with and she said she had no interest and would have stopped me if I'd gone further so my intuition was correct.

her opinion after the event is not very informative, she's not going to explain to you at which moment she lost attraction or at which moment you could've gone further

to her, she was alone with you, you made a move and self-rejected, and so she feels she is not attracted to you and she "never was"

 women view the past from the present moment, which is good spiritually, but she's not gonna tell you you had a chance, once she loses attraction to her its as if she was never attracted to you to begin with, so in this way her feedback says nothing

but had you gone further with perhaps more confidence she could've very well loved it

so no your intuition is incorrect in my opinion, and this is good man, it just means you need more self-confidence

if you can get women to come over to your appartment and spend time with you alone you have what it got, this comes down to self-confidence

 

[MM1988]

@Arkandeus you might be right about my friend but she said something else too. 

She said if a girl wants you to make a move she will give you the feeling that you CAN make a move. And thats exactly what was missing in my situation. My intuition told "nope, dont do it" and my logic told me "do it or youll regret it". And I think my intuition is right because it was always awkward later and my moves were never smooth. I ve seen what a girl wanting you to make a move looks like with friends, and if that were my situation i wouldnt be asking here, its really obvious. Im really more the platonic guy who suddenly has a dick.

 

@Truth Know them from friends etc. No strategy to attract them, I just try to get closer to them. I just ask them if they want to hang out at some point. I was never chased by a girl in my life. I think they come over in a platonic manner. I dont text with that girl anymore after the " incident" and she doesnt either. If I go by past experiences shes probanly hooking up with one of my friend on the weekend.

 

 

Edited August 8, 2018 by MM1988

[Arkandeus]

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She said if a girl wants you to make a move she will give you the feeling that you CAN make a move. And thats exactly what was missing in my situation. My intuition told "nope, dont do it" and my logic told me "do it or youll regret it". And I think my intuition is right because it was always awkward later and my moves were never smooth.

it was awkward because you lacked self-confidence and you were probably not used to being the guy that is making the moves from what I seem to be getting here

if I myself back in the day had to wait for a girl to make me feel I can do a move I would've stayed absolutely unexperienced until now, I was bundled with anxiety and self-doubt and fear, no girl would've given me a green signal ever to make a move,I had to get out of that hole myself

 

thats not even taking into account the emotionnal impact of you making a move confidently on her

the move itself, can make the girl like you more

 

on top of that can you confidently say when a girl makes things easy for you?

you may have seen this or that, but if you have a fear to be rejected this fear will distort your perspective, thats a guarantee

even if lets say for the sake of agreeing with you, you happen to be right about 90 percent, but 10 percent of your perspective is skewed by fear, are you willing to rely on information where 1/10th incomplete?

if there's one chance in ten that your intuition is wrong and it is ok to make a move and go further, is that a chance you're willing to take? 

and I'm being agreeable here, to me when fear enters the picture your intuition is worth about 10% of accurate information even less

again the very fact that she came to your appartment alone is her big green signal, making it hugely easy for you to begin with

relying on her opinion after the fact is not to be done, it really is not, everything she says is from the perspective that things cannot get intimate between you two, she speaks from an emotional perspective

she's never going to tell you how she made things easy for you, even if you ask her

[MM1988]

@Arkandeus you are right, next time ill go for her hand, and if shes okay with that Ill just go for the kiss. Thats probably a better strategy.

However with that one girl she already said via text some time before shes not interrested in more than friendship when I confronted her, I thought her coming to my place alone was a green sign but I doubt it. Whatever she thought before, now that I made my move without confidence I guess its over for good. I wont text her again, if she shows any interest after that I might give it another go. I hope I dont fuck up next time im alone with some girl. I'm just not a naturally smooth guy and I get anxious in these situations because it never worked in the past.

I also agree that asking a girl about the past is useless, she would never admit I had a chance, especialy because that girl has a boyfriend now.

Thanks for your help.

Edited August 8, 2018 by MM1988

[MM1988]

@Arkandeus by the way, would you say generally speaking is it okay to maybe just hold hands on one meeting, then kiss on the second and have sex some time later? Or is that too slow for girls and they will think they guy is not confident and bold enough. Because I'm not sure if I could pull that off. I mean I'm sure there are some Jock type of guys who will do this without problems, but average guys get into relationships too. I wonder are they all that bold and sexually aggressive when alone wirh a girl? I honestly feel like I'm missing something natural all guys seem to have.

I know some really nerdy passive guys with girlfriends and I just cant imagine that they would behave that way, but still for them having girlfriends is just a totally natural part of life they dont even think about. Yet for me its a constant struggle since puberty.

Edited August 8, 2018 by MM1988

[MM1988]

@Feel Good thats completely different advice than @Arkandeus is giving here. shit I'm so confused.

[MM1988]

I think I shouldnt even be here posting about this like a clueless teenager.I'm 30 in a couple weeks I think its time for me to see a therapist about this.

[Arkandeus]

nah man you're doing the right thing, no therapist will tell you advice as real as this, this is advice you need to get from other men who want you to succeed and share their own personal opinion from their experience , from what has worked for them over various situations

 

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I hope I dont fuck up next time im alone with some girl. I'm just not a naturally smooth guy and I get anxious in these situations because it never worked in the past.

I used to be exactly the same man, not natural in any way, I was afraid I'd get slapped or screamed at if I made a move, that's how guilty and undeserving I felt due to low confidence

believe in yourself, you deserve it, you desire it so you deserve it

you are awkward, you are anxious and you fuck it up, this is who you are so be who you are

be awkward, be anxious and fuck things up with girls, dont let that stop you from deserving what you desire

be a fuckup and still know that you deserve to succeed, you deserve the best

 

this is being mature, accepting that you're growing, its a natural part of life isn't?

to make mistakes and learn, its human, its normal to fuck up, to be awkward ... doesn't change that you're still a boss, you're still awesome 

this is what I call the art of being a novice, you can be great at not being good at something

keep trying, keep being positive, feeling deserving, going forward

make a mistake? make that mistake like a boss, fuck up like a boss, get up, keep going, feeling deserving

this is why I value a clear rejection over some vague hints or intiutions

every encounter with a women is positive for me, if she likes me I feel great, if she rejects me I believe even more in myself

because I chose my own well being over anyone's opinion, I'm great, and yes its easier when people give you positive feedback , but people aren't always around, they have their own stuff to deal with, you are your biggest source of positive reinforcement and always there, always reliable in every single situation

 

 

 

 

[MM1988]

@Arkandeus thanks for the good advice. I guess it becomes easier once you have positive experiences you can built your confidence on. If something I did ever worked I would go in with a "I do it this way and screw her if she doesnt like it" mindset too. But the situation I've been in for the last 10 years is just a mixture of feeling lost, confused and hopeless with women.

Edited August 8, 2018 by MM1988

[Arkandeus]

13 hours ago, MM1988 said:

@Arkandeus thanks for the good advice. I guess it becomes easier once you have positive experiences you can built your confidence on. If something I did ever worked I would go in with a "I do it this way and screw her if she doesnt like it" mindset too. But the situation I've been in for the last 10 years is just a mixture of feeling lost, confused and hopeless with women.

I know that feeling man, trust me life has your back

if you keep desiring and believing that you deserve you will be put into the right situations for you to grow

if you can get women to come over alone in your appartment man you are far from hopeless, you got everything it takes, you did things right

I hope you realize how valuable it is that you did that, there is no friend type situation, every women knows if she goes to a mans appartment alone, friend or not, there is a chance he will make a move, and they were willing to take that chance with you, you're doing something right big time, you aint hopeless at all, not to me

that natural side is inside you right now, it might be able to come out more but its there right now

its just a matter of experience, patience, keep trying, every interaction with a women is a learning experience, especially when you make a move, every single interaction makes you better, whether it was a succes or a failure, when you notice it it'll be great

 

 

[MM1988]

@Arkandeus I guess you are right that they cant expect me not to make a move when they come over alone, I never looked at it that way - thanks a lot. The narrative I had in my head was that they saw me as some kind of asexual being and are then shocked when I make a move as if I were their brother or something. But it makes more sense that they would think of it the way you said, they cant be that clueless. In the end it probably really boils down to a confidence issue.