Is enlightenment just a waste of time?

[Widdle Puppy]

I don't understand. If we don't have free will then what's the point of even trying or doing anything? Why don't we just live from our ego and do pragmatic stuff then cause it's all just an illusion and those that are destined to be enlightened will be and those that don't won't be enlightened. I'm going to continue to meditate cause it makes me emotionally better and improves my life but I don't see any point in being enlightened if non duality is a thing then it doesn't matter if we are or not. Why would it matter if the illusion itself realizes something cause nothing was realized if nothing was realizing it. I'm cool with this paradox but I think for some of us to make progress or even live our lives it's not worth doing any of this stuff and just living our lives normally. 

[Leo Gura]

It makes all the difference in the world.

Take a psychedelic and see for yourself what you are missing out on.

[Key Elements]

For me, I would start with trying to discover my life purpose. What can I do to offer the world and have a positive impact in some way? I say this because I find that one's karma counts. Karma is very deep. Why would someone get handed a true awakening without work? Why do mystics call earth "to love (realm)?"

Discovering your life purpose is a step by step process that will grow you. You could also discover your career and business / startup and go beyond that through your life purpose. 

[Forestluv]

47 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Take a psychedelic and see for yourself what you are missing out on.

It’s so straightforward to go beyond the ego with a psychedelic. It’s cheap, safer than alcohol and only takes a few hours. Why do so many “seekers” avoid it?

[Leo Gura]

40 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

It’s so straightforward to go beyond the ego with a psychedelic. It’s cheap, safer than alcohol and only takes a few hours. Why do so many “seekers” avoid it?

Precisely because it's too direct.

The problem with enlightenment is not that one can't do it, it's that one doesn't WANT to do it.

To want enlightenment is to already be 50% of the way there.

[Key Elements]

This clip of Shinzen Young is very useful, imo.

Also, notice that in Leo's Maslow's clip, self-transendence goes at the very top. It's not the foundation. However, if you look at the big picture, everything is interconnected. So, yes, it's ok to be practical. You can't just go for one thing and ignore the rest. The rest does count toward self-transendence and eventually enlightenment. 

[Naviy]

1 hour ago, Serotoninluv said:

It’s so straightforward to go beyond the ego with a psychedelic. It’s cheap, safer than alcohol and only takes a few hours. Why do so many “seekers” avoid it?

Well, in the country I am currently living in, there is death penalty for owning, buying, selling or even using almost any psychedelic. That would be a little bit too direct way to enlightenment for me

[SgtPepper]

23 minutes ago, Naviy said:

Well, in the country I am currently living in, there is death penalty for owning, buying, selling or even using almost any psychedelic. That would be a little bit too direct way to enlightenment for me

have you considered traveling somewhere else to try it? I understand if you can't financially, but psychedelics are seriously worth your time if you can.

An ayahuasca retreat for example would be a wonderful experience.

You can also go to South America and find someone like Dr. Octavio to receive 5-meo DMT from the toads:

 

[Joseph Maynor]

ENLIGHTENMENT IN A NUTSHELL

There's a lot of notions about what Enlightenment is or is not -- and I think most of those notions aren't hitting Enlightenment directly on the nose.  Enlightenment is already with you.  You just need to go through a process to unsee a lot of things to see it.  You're not gaining anything you don't already have with Enlightenment.  Enlightenment is not a launchpad into La La Land.  Enlightenment is BE-ing in the moment without pre-judgments or pre-expectations.  Enlightenment is going from 'need to know BE-ing' to BE-ing.  Now, countless Paradigms that you're clinging to will fall away in this process -- because what's gonna happen is you're gonna see that you've created all these filters on top of BE-ing with the Mind in the form of 'Beliefs' about Reality.  What you're gonna find is that both 'Beliefs' and 'Reality' are both orthogonal to BE-ing.  And actually you're gonna find that 'Beliefs' and 'Reality' are both Paradigms: The Paradigm of Belief and the Paradigm of Reality, respectively -- and neither one has anything AT ALL to do with BE-ing.  So, Enlightenment is kinda like peeling an onion back with all the layers of paradigms that must be transcended to totally transcend 'need to know BE-ing'.  And then you can just BE without all those thought-story filters.  But Enlightenment is already right there -- it's not something that must be found -- it's something that must be uncovered under a shit-pile of other Mind-created beliefs and paradigms.  And, Enlightenment is a beautiful thing.  It's so beautiful that I feel compelled to work on it for a long time.  And I feel compelled to teach too, because I find that my voice is a unique voice among the voices talking about Enlightenment.  And I find it worthwhile to add my 2 cents to that conversation.  But, Enlightenment is killer, make no mistake about it.  It takes balls to go through process because of what it can do to your life.  It can turn your life upside-down and inside-out.  And that's because when you stop clinging to the Paradigm of Self -- lots of systems that you've created and developed on your life will be impacted by that.  You're gonna stop doing unauthentic shit as that Paradigm of Self dies in you.  But the thing is you're already doing that -- it's just that you've been programmed with a layer of Need to Know BE-ing with accompanying Beliefs and Paradigms that identify you with that Paradigm of Self.  And you're constantly trying to pre-judge BE-ing and pre-expect things from BE-ing.  It's like being religious, right -- you think God is there to serve you.  Then you find out there is no God, and you're like f*ck!  Enlightenment is kinda the same thing -- but with regard to Beliefs and Paradigms about BE-ing.  All those are gonna fall away for ya -- and that's a BIG f*ck.  So, Enlightenment comes at a cost -- the 'Paradigm of Self or No Self' goes down the toilet -- as well as all other Paradigms or Beliefs about 'BE-ing'.  Forget about Need to Know BE-ing and just BE.  But the Mind has nothing to do now, see.  It's wildly flailing it's tentacles about to try to grasp onto some thought -- but there's nothing for it to grasp onto -- because you can't un-explode the grenade once you transcend the 'Paradigm of Need to Know BE-ing or No Need to Know BE-ing'.

Edited August 3, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Viking]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

To want enlightenment is to already be 50% of the way there.

The ego may want enlightenment only if it deludes itself, isnt it? yes or no? because how can it want to eradicate itself?

[WelcometoReality]

7 hours ago, Widdle Puppy said:

Why would it matter if the illusion itself realizes something cause nothing was realized if nothing was realizing it. I'm cool with this paradox but I think for some of us to make progress or even live our lives it's not worth doing any of this stuff and just living our lives normally. 

And what's the point of living your normal life if it's all illusion? Better just give up that too and watch some TV and eat some cheetos, except what's the point of that? Can you see that this is a non-issue because you can use the belief about determinism to take or not take action?

So someone told you about determinism and you believed it right. But what can you conclude from your own experience? Do you feel that you have free will or not? Should you trust what someone else tells you or your own experience?

[Prabhaker]

7 hours ago, Widdle Puppy said:

Is enlightenment just a waste of time?

Meditation is certainly for the gambler, not for the businessman. In all other ways of gambling we put something at stake, and in meditation we put ourselves at stake. One never knows whether one will be able to make it or not. It is a gambling, but only the gamblers know what life is.

When you realize that everything else is waste of time then only you can know the divine.

[Leo Gura]

5 hours ago, Naviy said:

Well, in the country I am currently living in, there is death penalty for owning, buying, selling or even using almost any psychedelic. That would be a little bit too direct way to enlightenment for me

Buy a plane ticket.

[Key Elements]

I really like how he explains it in this clip. It's on: what's the point? I agree with the whole thing and what he said at the very end. Excellent clip.

 

[Freethinking Guru]

A lot of great insight and honest perspectives in this discussion. I think it's completely understandable for the OP to wonder -- what's the point of being enlightened? What's the big deal if someone has awakened to the illusion and realized that nothing was there to be awoken? The language used to describe enlightenment makes it seems like nothing really changes -- but the change is simply the realization -- and the realization itself has a snowball effect on every thought and belief that has shaped your entire subjective world.

It changes how you relate to the world around you -- and most importantly, in my opinion, -- changes how you FEEL.

You won't have the same heaviness, harsh emotions, and psychological baggage you used to carry. Hence, you become en-LIGHT-ened.  Keep in mind, this is after a pretty extreme dismantling process of the falsehoods that come into light after the realization.

Again, the language that's often used to describe enlightenment makes it seem like nothing changes at all or that there's nothing you can absolutely do -- that confuses people sometimes and leads them to question -- why even bother?

As for psychadelics, it's obviously not a ticket to a permanent state of enlightenment, but it can be effective for giving you a glimpse of your true nature without the ego. Interestingly, if you read all the trip reports on Erowid, especially the bad ones lol, you'll notice that the user will come to a point where they lose the sense of themselves and don't even know who they are anymore. If they're not ready for it, they might freak out and call their mom or something along those lines lol. But if you have a notion that you'll experience your ego dissolving while on it, it can be very effective in recognizing what that's like -- so you can better discern the ego and the real you in your normal non-drugged state.

- Omar | FreethinkingGuru.com

[Solace]

@Widdle Puppy

You have free will. You are the creator. You are responsible for yourself.

You are already enlightened. You are already connected to love. This love is filtered through beliefs of separation making us feel disconnected. In every moment you can use your free will to anchor love and know more of yourself or choose to be unloving.

Yes, there is forces guiding us, which is called love, and when we align with love we can say our free will is one with Gods will. We are one with God, and if God had free will to create the universe, then we will always have free will. That is the reality. Use common sense too.

[Forestluv]

9 hours ago, Mikael89 said:

Many seekers avoid psychedelics because: 

1. It could just be some stupid brain shit going on. All you who praise psychedelics and have used them: you should know that psychedelics cause all kind of stupid weird nonsense illusions. So why would we trust anything which psychedelics create? If during a trip all people turn into pink elephants do you then make the conclusion that all human beings are actually pink elephants disguised as human beings? Do you trust what psychedelics show you? You think what psychedelics show you is the Truth?

2. It's not true that you can easily go beyond the ego with psychedelics. Many people take psychedelics and don't get any such experiences.

Yes indeed. I had similiar mental blocks before letting go and experimenting.

[Nahm]

17 hours ago, Widdle Puppy said:

I don't understand. If we don't have free will then what's the point of even trying or doing anything? Why don't we just live from our ego and do pragmatic stuff then cause it's all just an illusion and those that are destined to be enlightened will be and those that don't won't be enlightened. I'm going to continue to meditate cause it makes me emotionally better and improves my life but I don't see any point in being enlightened if non duality is a thing then it doesn't matter if we are or not. Why would it matter if the illusion itself realizes something cause nothing was realized if nothing was realizing it. I'm cool with this paradox but I think for some of us to make progress or even live our lives it's not worth doing any of this stuff and just living our lives normally. 

Ya but what if you have free will and there is no point so you’re free to do whatever and you do what you really want to do? That could be True, just yet unrealized (given the question). 

What if there’s no “normally”? What if some people have free will, and some actually don’t? What if you think you do, but you actually don’t? 

How could there be nothing (nonexistence)? What or where would it even be? How could it not be relative to whatever it is next to?

Why (not how) does meditation make you feel better? What you gettin in there?

Have the epic adventure of looking into everything you see, think, & believe and root out everything that’s false, or, not your own direct experience, because it’s up to you what matters, and Nothing matters quite a lot. 

You actually get to pick.

[jse]

20 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Take a psychedelic and see for yourself what you are missing out on.

"You"  are not missing out on anything, because "you"  won't be there to block the experience.  It's precisely  because "you"  weren't there  (i.e. the psychedelic moved your active mind out of the way), that the awakening experience was allowed to unfold.

However, after the experience "you"  will take memories of the psychedelic-induced experience, and in a weird hindsight-based reconstruction claim it as your own.   "I was there", "I experienced eternity", "I became God".

No! - "you" were not there.  It's just bullshit to support the mental process' desperate attempt at keeping alive the fragile illusion of a separate self.  "Spiritual practices" themselves (and in particular chasing enlightenment) are hijacked and used by the mental process, to reinforce the illusion of an ego seeking salvation from the self, for itself, as a self.

For fuck's sake, Leo... after all the effort you've put into this, shouldn't you get it by now?

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, jse said:

For fuck's sake, Leo... after all the effort you've put into this, shouldn't you get it by now?

By your logic, there isn't a me to get what you're saying, nor is there a you to complain about my not getting it

You are mixing up relative and absolute levels.

When I say something like, "You're missing out on psychedelics" I am speaking in common parlance. The plain fact is that people who have never done psychedelics have no idea what they're missing.

Don't muddy the waters here with petty pedantry.

For someone who's stuck thinking enlightenment is a waste of time, the proper guidance is: go do a psychedelic.

Problem solved. Now they will be ready to start doing spiritual practices.