Leo has no clothes

[Forestluv]

3 minutes ago, Pluck said:

Ok, so you will just skip my post and tell me abstract things like "observing my beliefs without attachment" as if you and I know what that means. 

You're saying that my post, objectively speaking, has no more relevance than a bird chirp?

I have never been roasted so hard before.

Thank you, but you're not constructive. Bye bye.

It’s totally impersonal. 

You are speaking your truth, based on your genetics and life conditioning. But it’s not The Truth. It’s just appearances and a desire to express oneself.

And all these thoughts in my mind are also appearances with no more relevance than a dog bark.

[Pluck]

6 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

If Leo actually resonates with what he says, then he deserves to have a voice.  I don't mind.  He introduced me to Enlightenment and Life Purpose.  I was already pretty advanced in Conceptual Understanding when I discovered Actualized 4 years ago.  So, I like Leo.  I want him to be successful.

Sure, he deserves to have a voice. People, however, don't deserve to have their brains washed. 

[Pluck]

 

4 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

It’s totally impersonal. 

You are speaking your truth, based on your genetics and life conditioning. But it’s not The Truth. It’s just appearances and a desire to express oneself.

And all these thoughts in my mind are also appearances with no more relevance than a dog bark.

What's your point? I'm not taking anything personal, by the way. I'm enlightened, you know. 

Also, you still haven't answered my question, nor have you even commented on my post. 

Edited July 27, 2018 by Pluck

[Joseph Maynor]

9 minutes ago, Pluck said:

Sure, he deserves to have a voice. People, however, don't deserve to have their brains washed. 

If Leo resonates with what he says, then that's not brainwashing.  Brainwashing is when someone intentionally manipulates or deceives someone.  I get the sense that Leo actually resonates with what he says.  And if that's the case, he deserves to be heard. 

Edited July 27, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Pluck]

15 minutes ago, Consept said:

I think you should always take in information from a multitude of sources and put it together in your own way that makes sense to you. 

I think so, too!

 

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So I think it's slightly unfair to say that he's just talking rubbish in terms of spirituality because he's not he's just saying it a way a different audience can understand it. You also contradict yourself by saying that he doesn't say anything new and then saying he speaks rubbish, if he's not saying anything new and repeating stuff then whatever he is repeating is rubbish by your reasoning. 

Where exactly do I contradict myself, humm?

 

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I think if you want to criticize him I see an issue with maybe a spiritual ego that he has and the fact that he's obviously not enlightened yet, but again those things can help you relate to him, like I have those things as well probably. To me guys like Mooji and sadhguru have an air about that where you know they've transcended, so there's comparison, but there's definitely a place for Leo 

What do you actually know about people, self-proclaimed "transcendants" or not? There's something fragile about the validity of such claims. 
I did criticize the issue of his ego in my post.

[lmfao]

@Pluck Are you someone who left an answer on "Is Leo Gura's Actualized.org a scam?" on Quora? I left a comment on the answer you left, https://www.quora.com/Is-Leo-Gura’s-Actualized-org-a-scam/answer/Lance-Everett-3/comment/57590422 , although my views since then have changed a bit. I still haven't a clue about Quantum Mechanics.

1 hour ago, Pluck said:

Upon watching his content on spirituality, and reading through the commentary, I am GREATLY unnerved by the lack of skepticism displayed by the arrogant anti-rationalist nihilists who have decided that they are “enlightened,” that they are deities and identified with whatever kind of notion they have attached to the label “Absolute Infinity,” and that they are above any sort of level-headed interpersonal conversation with people who have contrary viewpoints.

It is an absolutely perfect platform from which to dive into narcissistic nihilism and power seeking in a manner that garners widespread support amongst a unilaterally oriented ideological front of the same collectivist nihilistic philosophy.

Such people will simply shop for answers until they find ones they already agree with, and Leo is selling them their wildest narcissistic fantasies.

........

Logical bureaucracy is NOT to arrive at truth or divinity, it is to AVOID BEING MANIPULATED by fork-tongued Devils. I urge you to read, for the sake of alternative perspective, the culminative excerpt from Ayn Rand’s Atlas Shrugged “This is John Galt” speech (not to say that I agree with everything said in that book), because throwing your bureaucratic logical faculties out the window leaves you wide open to playing into becoming a victim of psychopathic manipulation tactics.

Some of your criticism here seems to be geared towards Leo's followers mainly. What do you mean by "commentary" here? Do you just mean youtube comments and actualized.org activity? 

You seem to have a problem with the "anti-rationalist" views Leo spouts. If you've watched and listened to Leo, you would know that Leo sees very well  how rationalism is useful but Leo is saying that rationalism has its limits. To say that rationalism has its limits is not to say that we accept whatever dogma is fed to us (as narrow minded religious folk might), it is to say we've opened our minds to experiencing truths which are beyond conceptualization and abstractions. Truths which you must reach through consciousness work. You can still use logic to navigate your way through life, whilst also not being a slave to it. All logical statements are based on logically baseless assumptions, and so logic defeats itself in this way. We can still maintain out logical faculties and see though manipulation tactics.

You rant about how Leo is a narcissistic and repeat this point many times, although you seem to provide no evidence.

2 hours ago, Pluck said:

Leo Gura has claimed quite openly to be God himself! That is a psychotic opinion on the direction that agency would take in that kind of hypothetical thought-space. “I am God”?!

First of all, what in the name of sanity are you talking about?

Secondly, NO, ABSOLUTELY NOT! If anything, those lines, “God is me, along with everything else”, is in likeness to the Hindu deity known as Brahman, who, under a dramatic metaphysical worldview, is the “actor playing all the parts.” His content is NOT novel in the slightest. He is just repackaging old spiritual beliefs in a way that is designed to inflate the ego he claims to have abandoned. The irony of it is intense — could it not be that seeking “enlightenment” is the ULTIMATE FORM OF EGOTISM!?

You say that this is a psychotic opinion to hold because what you think Leo means is different what Leo means. You then later talk about how there is the Hindu idea that we are all God, and you seem to have no problems with this idea. If you have no problems with that idea, then why do you hate Leo for saying "I am God"? To copy and paste what I wrote on Quora 

" When he says “I am God” I believe he's referring to the fact that through mystical experiences (I've felt this before through meditation) you can get in touch with your consciousness to the point that you realise that your entire experience “just is”, and you can't figure out why it is the way it is.

I'm not explaining it very well so I'll elaborate. For example, the thoughts that pop into your mind just pop into your mind without “you” doing anything (you can't think a thought before you think it). You feel that everything just is the way it is, and from the perspective of your own consciousness, there is no cause and it all feels magical. It's like there's this thing in reality that keeps it all magically working. All your thoughts, experiences, actions and feelings seem to come out of a void which you can't explain. Your entire reality comes out of this void. I believe he refers to this thing in reality (although I think this is something beyond verbal communication) as “absolute infinity” or “God”, and it is possible to be in consciously aware and in touch with “God” as it flows through you. "

53 minutes ago, Pluck said:

He claims to have obtained mystical knowledge about the nature of reality through some kind of mystical state of consciousness, but he ALSO has admitted openly to using psychedelic drugs and is probably suffering from schizoaffective religious narcissistic delusions! (Which, I am ashamed to admit—but for the purposes of credibility, I feel inclined to divulge to you in your entirely warranted skepticism—I have personally experienced, I know what I am talking about!)

....................................

Leo is rapidly developing into a “cult leader” character. I would not be surprised at all if he suffered from narcissistic personality disorder. Narcissists lack contrast from attention on themselves, and so they conflate themselves with others. But in truth, they do not understand what an “other” is. They have not given it the due attention, instead they are habitually absorbed into themselves. It is analogous to the fact that a child has no understanding of what it is to be a child. A child has no contrast between childhood and adulthood in their experience. But an adult has lost his childhood, and as such is in a position to comprehend the contrast. The people who believe they are above manipulation are those who are most likely to be manipulated. He promotes isolationalongside a grotesque brand of childish self-absorption, and attempts to put paranoid strain on the social support networks that people belong to, which is precisely what cult leaders do!

Again, you're making all these claims about narcissism. Many people do consciousness work and come across spiritual truths. Just because people have different standards of truth from you doesn't make them mentally ill or mentally disturbed.

2 hours ago, Pluck said:

Keep in mind, even WITHOUT these pointers, there is an estimated 10–15% chance that whoever you are engaging with is a sub-clinical psychopath, and that statistic only rises the higher up the power ladder you go, because psychopaths typically crave power and stimulation, and are very effective and far from hesitant in seeking it out. Be careful, stay vigilant. The reason for logical bureaucracy is NOT epistemological, it is sociological—it rests on the foundations of humane compromise and mutual interpersonal respect. It is fundamental to the functioning of a healthy individual and a healthy society, and I sure as Hell don’t want to live in Oceania!

I will agree with you that for spirituality, people must look out for manipulation. I think you're just misrepresenting and jumping to conclusions about Leo's views on rationality simply because there exist many people out there who manipulate and abuse people by making people throw out their critical faculties. I see little abuse or manipulation from Leo, I mostly see someone who's encouraging open minded inquiry into the true nature of reality.

2 hours ago, Pluck said:

You can take away some positives (I know I did - I started meditating, which has helped me), but only if you know how to tease them away from the rest of his false malicious nonsense, for example, the flappery about witches and deities and “enlightenment” and “becoming infinite” and "just becoming reality". To me, it seems he has either gone off the deep-end with psychedelic drugs and is suffering from a schizoaffective episode, or else he is simply manipulating people with a show to gain power and influence over their minds.

This stuff about enlightenment and becoming infinite is something you can experience through meditation (idk about the witches thing lol). You don't have to take Leo's word for it. I believe these things, doesn't mean I'm schizoaffective. Again, that's such an absurd claim. There is a lot of bullshit in New Age spirituality, but you seem to just be unjustifiably projecting all that shit onto Leo. I mean the word "infinite" is a woo-woo word, but you must see through your prejudices. Again, I would cite a section of my quora comment which I showed above. 

 

To be honest, I feel like I've wasted some time replying to this emotionally charged essay of yours. 

Edited July 27, 2018 by lmfao

[Pluck]

Just now, Joseph Maynor said:

If Leo resonates with what he says, then that's not brainwashing.  

I'm afraid you are mistaken here. It is human nature to lie, because that is expedient, and once you've lied, and you know you've done so, to get rid of the guilt, you create another lie to justify the first one. Lies breed more lies. When adversity hits you, as it inevitably will in life, because life is suffering, as the Buddhists know, your character won't be strong enough to deal with it. That's the problem with lying, well, human nature. 

If Leo resonates with what he says, that doesn't mean it's true or a valid way of viewing life! Not to compare him to Hitler, but I'm sure he resonated with what he said when he urged "Wir müssen die Juden ausrotten." 

 

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Brainwashing is when someone intentionally manipulates or deceives someone.  

Incorrect... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainwashing

I'd invite you to entertain the possibility that it is indeed intentional, though. If not, it's a big lie. Both are equally detrimental to the viewers not strong enough to think critically. 

[Joseph Maynor]

5 minutes ago, Pluck said:

I'm afraid you are mistaken here. It is human nature to lie, because that is expedient, and once you've lied, and you know you've done so, to get rid of the guilt, you create another lie to justify the first one. Lies breed more lies. When adversity hits you, as it inevitably will in life, because life is suffering, as the Buddhists know, your character won't be strong enough to deal with it. That's the problem with lying, well, human nature. 

If Leo resonates with what he says, that doesn't mean it's true or a valid way of viewing life! Not to compare him to Hitler, but I'm sure he resonated with what he said when he urged "Wir müssen die Juden ausrotten." 

 

Incorrect... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainwashing

I'd invite you to entertain the possibility that it is indeed intentional, though. If not, it's a big lie. Both are equally detrimental to the viewers not strong enough to think critically. 

I think Leo actually believes what he says.  I get that sense.  Why would he waste his time putting out crap that he didn't believe in?  Yeah, I don't think he would.  I think he believes in what he's saying.  You may not agree with what he says, but that's a different issue.

Edited July 27, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Widdle Puppy]

I skimmed the OP and it reads like a troll post honestly or maybe this person is serious and this is just the faculty of their ability to express himself/herself. 

Either way Leo is not a Guru, or a mystic nor is he enlightened or anything like that. He has said so himself several times. He does not teach or lead any sort of specific spiritual practice nor does he have followers for some sort of school he has established. Maybe he sometimes gets a little lost in the theory side of things but what he does best with actualized is he takes these very broad concepts of enlightenment, awareness, paradigms, psychology etc which are found in many spiritual traditions, modalities, etc and loosely phrases them in a modern western-logical language that can be helpful for people with a similar mindset. 

 

Edited July 27, 2018 by Widdle Puppy

[Pluck]

1 minute ago, Joseph Maynor said:

I think Leo actually believes what he says.  I get that sense.  Why would he waste his time putting out crap that he didn't believe in?  Yeah, I don't think he would.  I think he believes in what he's saying.  You may not agree with what he says, but that's a different issue.

I think he believes in what he says, too, which is why, like I suggested, he would have to lie to put out the crap. 

[Joseph Maynor]

14 minutes ago, Pluck said:

I think he believes in what he says, too, which is why, like I suggested, he would have to lie to put out the crap. 

Why would he have to lie if he believes it?  I don't see the lying element.  Lying is intentional misrepresentation of what you actually believe.  So, if you're a bum on the street asking me for a dollar, I might lie to you and say 'I don't got shit, sorry'.  Or, maybe I'm honest and say, 'I do, but I don't want to give you any money'.  

Edited July 27, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Katlicitas]

I think you vastly underestimate Leos viewers.
I doubt anyone takes everything Leo states just as a fact, just as I doubt anyone takes Leos videos as their sole source of information.
If anything, I don't believe anyone falls victim to Leos "brainwashing" but rather to their own lack of judgement.

[Arman]

4 hours ago, Pluck said:

Leo Gura has claimed quite openly to be God himself! That is a psychotic opinion

Leo Gura’s philosophy is a dangerous one 

disarm you and distract you with diversion tactics and gaslighting, misrepresentation of his opposition

actions speak louder than words, and it really isn’t hard to see the incentives for a sociopath or narcissist to be lying about these kinds of things to hundreds of thousands of people.

a self-indulgent, dangerous, radical, arrogant narcissistic agenda), avoiding accountability for his viewpoints.

He promotes isolation alongside a grotesque brand of childish self-absorption, and attempts to put paranoid strain on the social support networks that people belong to, which is precisely what cult leaders do!

The arrogance, immaturity, and self-indulgence of that channel disgusts me quite strongly

I think he knows what immense guilt awaits him should he confess and make it clear to himself the lies he has imposed unto himself and his viewers for many many years

What a pile of utter balogna. A good example of content that might sound impressive in a vacuum or to anyone who loves to get off on being highly polarized.  

I said this in a recent post, but you can shift context to make literally any statement true and then argue it, so I'm not going to argue any of your points except one as an example.

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"Leo Gura has claimed quite openly to be God himself!" That is a psychotic opinion

See that's a great way to bastardize truth to fit your emotional agenda. Sure, it's technically true with the way that you put it - which is stripped of its meaning, nuance and context. Did you happen to mention that this idea extends to say that everyone is God, not JUST Leo? No because that doesn't fit the narrative that he's an insane cult leader.

Here's my own 100% accurate statements

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Pluck claims with implied authority that he actually KNOWS what is and isn't God. Belittling the current authority is the first step to hijacking someones worldview.  Pluck is actually subtly insinuating omniscience. He uses condescending and evocative language to trigger your lizard brain into taking his position while undermining the entire community. He is actually positioning himself as the messiah which will take you from 'delusion' to his own idea of a promise land. Extremely dangerous. Stripping a person of their beliefs and asserting yourself as the voice of reason is literally what cult leaders do. 

He even made another thread asking how to delete posts. What does he have to hide? I'm not saying that he's necessarily said anything wrong, but let me ask you this, is he ABOVE these kinds of questions? Should he be able to delete his posts while nobody else can?

Hey, this is kinda fun! 

Positioning yourself as an authority and hooking people into your narrative is what teachers do. It's what any good marketer does. The difference between a dangerous cult and this community is that 99% of it just watch youtube videos and at most will buy some $97 course while the other percent post on a message board and argue non duality and occasionally talk about opening their third eye and how long it's been since they've jerked off. What the hell kind of weak ass cult is that? If you're going to claim to be a cult leader and you're not even having sex with multiple followers (mindfucking doens't count) then take your ass back to cult school because you have about as much authority and influence as a bald school principal who gets 'kick me' notes stuck to his back. 

If you think that people being highly invested in someone and becoming attached in a borderline unhealthy way makes that a dangerous cult, then so is literally every half popular youtube personality. 

 

 

 

 

 

[RichardY]

@Pluck

1) Alternatives. While accusing Leo for starting a cult, you are recommending the main authorship work of someone who started a cult, Ayn Rand. Not that I think your recommendation of "Atlas Shrugged" is not without merit, seen it referenced a lot, even the first Bioshock game referenced Ayn Rand.  Probably listen to it on Audible sometime. Would you kindly recommend a contemporary better or different thinker/mystic?

2) Psychedelics. I have wondered if taking psychedelics, while increasing openness, may decrease conscientiousness fragmenting a personality. Leading to a less non dual state and more contradictions/duality in language. Not all win.

3) Truth. I take it that you perhaps subscribe to a correspondence theory of truth? Been thinking about an infinitism expression of truth. Could be vanity and Nihilism not too fussed. Although while saying that truth is not expressed in English, why should I take what you say seriously, how are you being any different?

4) Forum. Pretty ace. Who else is doing something like it? ok politics is iffy, although can blow up in big arguments leaving people perhaps drained or upset, not bothered personally. But plenty of other topics are talked about or provide the opportunity to mention.

5) Personally I Trust no one. Which precludes doing philosophy. Although reading philosophy, has implications in metaphysics, mathematics and how we structure or unstructure reality.

 

[Joseph Maynor]

As another nod to Leo, I say the Forum has benefited me as well.  I was doing what I'm doing now before the Forum, but on my own.  The Forum adds a social element to Personal Development that kind of acts as a synergy factor.  My growth has really benefited from doing it in a community versus alone.  Also the Forum can actually function as a sanity check for you too.  If you're just off on your own, you don't have that.  

Edited July 27, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Consept]

4 hours ago, Pluck said:

I think so, too!

 

Where exactly do I contradict myself, humm?

 

What do you actually know about people, self-proclaimed "transcendants" or not? There's something fragile about the validity of such claims. 
I did criticize the issue of his ego in my post.

They don't necessarily say they're transcendent, I'm saying I get that from their presence and what they say, it resonates with me on a certain level, so itsy judgement of them. If someone was just going around proclaiming they were enlightened it probably wouldn't resonate with me. 

There are so many teachers in life and what tends to happen is you resonate with certain ones for whatever reasons. Now Leo is a teacher who obviously resonates with some people, if he doesn't with you then that's ok. But you've gone the extra step and said he's dangerous, assuming you're not just doing this for attention or to play devil's advocate, means you really believe this to be the case. 

For me, anyone with power and a large fan base espeicially with spiritual teachings does have the potential to abuse that power, so the position he's in can be seen as potentially dangerous. But to make a claim that he is you would have to pinpoint exactly things he does that take advantage of his followers. If you just say the things he talks about, these things, like you also say are not new they can be found in the teachings of others as well and as far as I know they're not cult leaders. So I just don't see it to be honest, I think it's fair to highlight the potential danger but I can't really see the actual danger. 

[SgtPepper]

I think your overreacting and completely misconstruing Leo's words. 

[GreenDragon]

@Pluck Do some research on enlightenment. By the way, it's not a secret that Leo learned about it somewhere and just started pursuing it and making videos about it. He doesn't claim that it's his idea, it's been around for like 2500 years All this "HE CLAIMES TO BE GOD HIMSELF!!! He is a narcissistic psychopath!" is just pure misunderstanding.  I didn't see even one valid argument in this post. Only taking Leo's words and giving them your meaning to call him a psychopath.
Well, that's why saying "In this video I'm going to tell you how I became God" at the start of a video is not a very good idea .

[Sashaj]

What a funny essay. So much effort that could be directed towards better things. But I don’t agree or disagree with your opinions. I don’t know Leo personally but I like his videos and facial expressions

[molosku]

I came into this thread anticipating pictures of naked Leo. Needles to say, I'm once again very disappointed in this community.