what are the arguments against the materialist paradigm?

[Preetom]

2 hours ago, Viking said:

i said earlier that i have no idea how to focus on consciousness

That's right. You can't have any idea about it

Jokes aside, let me explain: Your attention can have 2 movements

1) It can focus on Objects

2) or it can relax the focus on objects.

If I tell you to focus on the sensation in your chest, you can easily do that. How long you can keep it there is depended on your concentration skill (which you can increase by practice or decrease). This is called giving attention to an object.

Now once you get a hold of that sensation, ask yourself, ''What is it that knows this experience?''

That which knows must be irrefutably different than the object that is known. Because the eye can't see the eye. A sensation can't be aware of another sensation. it is YOU, the aware presence that is aware of all this object. \

When you ask that question, see for yourself how your attention relaxes on that sensation. A shift happens in the direction of your attention. Consciousness doesn't have any objective quality. So focusing on Consciousness doesn't feel the same way as focusing on an object. Be in that relaxed attentive state. That's all you have to. You're taking your stand as the knowingness itself, rather than imagining yourself as a limited object. That is ''Being aware of being aware'' in a nutshell.

It is something you're doing 24/7, you're just not aware of it. That's why it is called a non-doing. Focusing on an object is called doing. This is the relaxation of that doing. Hope this clears up things a bit more.

Edited July 26, 2018 by Preetom

[Viking]

7 minutes ago, Preetom said:

When you ask that question, see for yourself how your attention relaxes on that sensation.

I dont understand what you mean by relaxed attention, its either on or off. when i ask a question i can either ask the question or be aware of the sensation, not both. if i ask the question and then become aware of the sensation there comes no answer.

haha im confused as fuck, but nevermind, thank you for trying to explain. I think ill be able to become aware at some point with my meditation practice.

[Dodo]

2 minutes ago, Viking said:

I dont understand what you mean by relaxed attention, its either on or off. when i ask a question i can either ask the question or be aware of the sensation, not both. if i ask the question and then become aware of the sensation there comes no answer.

haha im confused as fuck, but nevermind, thank you for trying to explain. I think ill be able to become aware at some point with my meditation practice.

you are breaking reality wow! You are not aware? Error! Error! 

[Viking]

10 minutes ago, Dodo said:

you are breaking reality wow! You are not aware? Error! Error! 

aware of awareness, that is.

when I ask the question "am I aware", my answer is obviously, because im always aware, but the answer is more intellectual than experiential in the moment. I deduce im aware because otherwise i couldnt answer the question, but i cant experience my awareness.

[Preetom]

21 minutes ago, Viking said:

I dont understand what you mean by relaxed attention, its either on or off. when i ask a question i can either ask the question or be aware of the sensation, not both. if i ask the question and then become aware of the sensation there comes no answer.

When you ask yourself that question, see how your sense of 'I' shifts. You don't perceive that sensation in your chest as 'I' but rather you see clearly that 'you' are aware of that sensation. And your presence has nothing to do with this sensation in chest. That's how you disidentify from deep feelings, thoughts, beliefs etc. literally all objects.

And another important thing, self inquiry is NOT a philosophical or intellectual endeavor that can be written as a Thesis. It is a very personal and emotional endeavor. At times, you'll feel like your heart is gonna explode out of fear. That's when you know that it's working and the depth of this work.

21 minutes ago, Viking said:

haha im confused as fuck, but nevermind, thank you for trying to explain. I think ill be able to become aware at some point with my meditation practice.

I just read that you'll be going on a meditation retreat. If you are determined to do self-inquiry in that meditation retreat, then I highly recommend you to really understand how this thing works. Or else, you'll be wasting all that time mindlessly. Read books, watch videos on Self inquiry. When self inquiry is properly done, it can shift one's experience in few minutes. You may not sustain it, that is depended on regular practice. But make sure you understand how to actually do this self inquiry.

If not, then I'd recommend you to do concentration practices (like focusing on breath, sensation etc). Trying to do self-inquiry without understanding it, is a waste of time. It is not regarded as the highest form of meditation for no reason you know 

Edited July 26, 2018 by Preetom

[Dodo]

Just now, Viking said:

aware of awareness, that is.

when I ask the question "am I aware", my answer is obviously, because im always aware, but the answer is more intellectual than experiential in the moment. I deduce im aware because otherwise i couldnt answer the question, but i cant experience my awareness.

If you ask yourself "Am I Aware" the answer is obviously yes. You seem to believe you need time (past) in order to know you are aware now? 

 

Is it not your experience now that you are aware? <-- This right here, between this question and your answer, you are aware of awareness. Awareness is not an object, so that's why your mind is confused. It wants to hold objects, but its that in which the finite mind is being held. It cannot know it. Only awareness can know awareness. Only you can know you are aware. Sink deeper into that, marinate in awareness.

Love & peace <3 

[Viking]

23 minutes ago, Preetom said:

I just read that you'll be going on a meditation retreat. If you are determined to do self-inquiry in that meditation retreat, then I highly recommend you to really understand how this thing works. Or else, you'll be wasting all that time mindlessly. Read books, watch videos on Self inquiry. When self inquiry is properly done, it can shift one's experience in few minutes. You may not sustain it, that is depended on regular practice. But make sure you understand how to actually do this self inquiry.

If not, then I'd recommend you to do concentration practices (like focusing on breath, sensation etc). Trying to do self-inquiry without understanding it, is a waste of time. It is not regarded as the highest form of meditation for no reason you know 

im doing a classic 10 day vipassana. no self inquiry. I did see both leo's videos on self inquiry though.

26 minutes ago, Preetom said:

When you ask yourself that question, see how your sense of 'I' shifts. You don't perceive that sensation in your chest as 'I' but rather you see clearly that 'you' are aware of that sensation. And your presence has nothing to do with this sensation in chest. That's how you disidentify from deep feelings, thoughts, beliefs etc. literally all objects.

I think I have some problems with my brain, when I ask a question I dont get the meaning of the question, hence i dont get an answer. im saying the question in my head and continue feeling the sensation. I can realize though that im not the sensation, but not because im something other than the sensation, but because i somehow know that im not the sensation, seems kinda obvious.

[Preetom]

6 minutes ago, Viking said:

I think I have some problems with my brain, when I ask a question I dont get the meaning of the question, hence i dont get an answer. im saying the question in my head and continue feeling the sensation. I can realize though that im not the sensation, but not because im something other than the sensation, but because i somehow know that im not the sensation, seems kinda obvious.

If you clearly see that you're not that sensation, then that's self-inquiry happening right there. You're not supposed to get a verbal answer from your questions. That would be anther thought aka another object.

The experiential understanding is the key here. You're supposed to ask a question and keep observing the whole phenomena with an open mind. Not trying to make stories of what should or should not happen. That's it! whatever needs to happen will happen in due course.

This is why from mind's perspective, these highest spiritual practices like self-inquiry, unconditional surrender etc. are regarded as total waste of time. Just because it cannot formulate a story around them

[Dodo]

13 minutes ago, Viking said:

im doing a classic 10 day vipassana. no self inquiry. I did see both leo's videos on self inquiry though.

I think I have some problems with my brain, when I ask a question I dont get the meaning of the question, hence i dont get an answer. im saying the question in my head and continue feeling the sensation. I can realize though that im not the sensation, but not because im something other than the sensation, but because i somehow know that im not the sensation, seems kinda obvious.

That's good. In an attempt to make it even more obvious, you can try the following

Focus on an object of perception, anything really. Whatsoever is happening in the moment - birds singing, thoughts, bodily sensations, etc... Now together with that object, there is `something` else present. While the object might change, there is one thing which never changes - the subject to which the object is appearing - you.  

Instead of your attention being stuck on the object of perception and on commentaries about the object of perception, can you turn your awareness in the opposite direction, back to the awareness that is aware of those perceptions? That is you... Do it when you are bored. It is like relaxing of the attention away from the objects and the attention SINKS into the vastness of The Heart. #ExoticTerms #JustDoIT

[Viking]

2 minutes ago, Dodo said:

can you turn your awareness in the opposite direction, back to the awareness that is aware of those perceptions?

cant do that.

 

14 minutes ago, Preetom said:

If you clearly see that you're not that sensation, then that's self-inquiry happening right there. You're not supposed to get a verbal answer from your questions. That would be anther thought aka another object.

The experiential understanding is the key here. You're supposed to ask a question and keep observing the whole phenomena with an open mind. Not trying to make stories of what should or should not happen. That's it! whatever needs to happen will happen in due course.

isnt that neti neti what youre describing?

and what questions am i supposed to be asking? if i ask who am i, i get an answer -"no idea"

[Joseph Maynor]

I think Leo beats this horse to death about the Materialist Paradigm in his videos, no?  If you wanna hear that argument, watch all of Leo’s videos.

Edited July 26, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Viking]

4 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

I think Leo beats this horse to death about the Materialist Paradigm in his videos, no?  If you wanna hear that argument, watch all of Leo’s videos.

ive seen most of his videos. i still dont get it fully.

[Preetom]

28 minutes ago, Viking said:

isnt that neti neti what youre describing?

and what questions am i supposed to be asking? if i ask who am i, i get an answer -"no idea"

Yes that's neti neti. It's part of self inquiry. This neti neti is done to relax your focus from objects.

stop asking who am I if that doesn't work for you. There are bunch of other more practical, contemplative questions. But from reading your posts, I'm assuming that you have a limited understanding on Self-inquiry. Search Self-inquiry and listen to at least 3-4 teachers breaking this down. Seach for the commonalties in their interpretations. That's the bulk of the work. Anyway I'm listing some of the questions that work for me.

1) '' What is it, that knows this experience?''

2) ''That which knows this experience, is it attached to this experience?''

3) ''That which knows this experience, does it have a boundary?''

4) ''That which knows this experience, does it have a color, shape, size, location etc?''

5) ''That which knows this experience, does it change with the changing experience?''

6) ''That which knows this experience, how does it knows it's presence?''

7) ''This knowingness, is it ever present or it comes and goes?''

8) ''That which knows this experience, is that an experience itself?''

The answer to these questions is never verbal or something like, ''I don't know/I don't care''. These questions are here to facilitate the observation. Always stay with your present experience. Never go to thoughts about what should or should not happen right now

Edited July 26, 2018 by Preetom

[Dodo]

 

12 minutes ago, Viking said:

cant do that.

 

It is like relaxing of the attention away from the objects and the attention SINKS into the vastness of The Heart. #ExoticTerms #JustDoIT

It's not really a doing, it's the opposite, it is just being. Seek that which doesn't change and you shall find. 

[Faceless]

6 minutes ago, Preetom said:

1) '' What is it, that knows this experience?''

 

Thought-self 

7 minutes ago, Preetom said:

'That which knows this experience, is it attached to this experience?''

That which knows and experience, One and the same movement of the i. 

8 minutes ago, Preetom said:

This knowingness, is it ever present or it comes and goes?''

Experience or “knowingness”....

the accumulation of past, present, projected future as experience. 

 

But If there is no experiencer is there an experience? 

That is the question

 

 

 

[Faceless]

13 minutes ago, Dodo said:

Seek that which doesn't change and you shall find. 

Kinda sounds like a doing. 

What qualities as a doing? 

 

[Preetom]

@Faceless

Let us contemplate on these questions. This isn't an exam where we will be marked for our answers 

[Faceless]

3 minutes ago, Preetom said:

@Faceless

Let us contemplate on these questions. This isn't an exam where we will be marked for our answers 

No no exams ?

I’ve never taken one before. Sounds not so favorable. 

Edited July 26, 2018 by Faceless

[Preetom]

@Faceless

How do you define 'experience'?

Take the feeling in your chest. To your direct experience, what is it to you?

[Faceless]

When I talk about experience I mean anything we experience in the present, is a projection of thought,(experience, knowledge, memory)