what are the arguments against the materialist paradigm?

[Viking]

@DesertRat in response to what are you saying that?

10 minutes ago, Nahm said:

lol. Yeah. Definitly. 

I cant seem to be able to be aware of it. I know its not a thing, and it seems to me like i can only be aware of things (sensations, see, hear...)

[DesertRat]

@Viking to your question re: “consciousness/awareness can I be aware of it”?

I’m confused at your confusion.

[Nahm]

12 minutes ago, Viking said:

@DesertRat in response to what are you saying that?

I cant seem to be able to be aware of it. I know its not a thing, and it seems to me like i can only be aware of things (sensations, see, hear...)

What knows it is not a thing?

[DesertRat]

@Nahm my conscious consciousness of being conscious (gotta weed out likely ego trickery, been there) is not a thing, ok.

Sensation?  cool

Experience?  same

 

[Saumaya]

26 minutes ago, Viking said:

I cant seem to be able to be aware of it. I know its not a thing, and it seems to me like i can only be aware of things (sensations, see, hear...)

Thats because it doesn't work like that. You are consciousness(your true nature) itself, including everything as part of you. Who is being aware of who?

This where the truth part comes in, dissolve your ego and beliefs to such an extent that Truth is the only thing left. i.e You are it(consciousness). Abiding Non Dual Awareness.

 

@Nahm @Viking Thanks

[DesertRat]

@Saumaya nicely worded.

[InfinitePotential]

Double slit experiment (matter is particle like when observed, wave like when not), quantum entanglement (instant cause and effect across distance, or different aspect of same object in multiple places), and quantum eraser (seemingly backwards causality) pretty much do it for me. But here is a ton more stuff that makes reality seem more virtual / digital than physical, worth a close read:

"Here are fifteen reasons why we live in a virtual reality: from Brian Whitworth’s, “Quantum Realism”

How can we know if our world is a digital construct or not? One way is to look for tell-tale signs, like pixels, processing limits, channel bandwidths and a system boot-up. A virtual reality should behave like one, so a critical analysis should reveal it. Surprisingly, physics tells us that our world:

Had a beginning: All the distant galaxies are receding from us at known rates, so it is possible to calculate back when our universe started up about fourteen billion years ago, in a first event that began not only our universe but also its space and time. Yet a complete physical universe can’t begin, as by definition there is nothing outside it to create it and to create itself, it would have to exist before it began. This leaves physics speculating on D-branes, alternate universes, wormholes, teleporting worlds, quantum tunneling, big bang-big crunch oscillation theories and other steady state variants. In contrast, every virtual reality has a boot up that creates its pixels and its space-time operating system, based on nothing within itself.

Has a maximum speed: In our world, a light shone from a spaceship moving at almost the speed of light still leaves the ship at the speed of light, which is impossible in an objective reality. Einstein proved that the speed of light is a maximum, but gave no reason for it. The equations increase an object’s inherent mass as it increases speed relative to other objects, which works but doesn’t really explain anything. In contrast, every screen has a fixed refresh rate that no pixel-to-pixel transfer “speed” can exceed.

Is digital: Everything at the quantum level is quantized, including time and space, but field theory assumes continuity, so it has to avoid the infinities that implies by a mathematical trick called renormalization. We think our world has no gaps but actually Planck length and time are irreducible and calculus implies infinitesimals. In quantum realism, pixels and cycles are expected.

Has quantum tunneling. For an electron to suddenly appear outside a field barrier it can’t penetrate is like a coin in a perfectly sealed glass bottle suddenly appearing outside it. Again, this is impossible for an objective reality although quantum theory permits it. In contrast, a digital reality allows “cuts” between one probabilistic frame (quantum state) and another (Ch5).

Entangles entities: Entangled photons maintain opposite spins no matter how far apart they go because quantum collapse works instantly across the universe. An objective reality limited by the speed of light can’t do this, so Einstein called entanglement spooky action at a distance. In contrast, a program can instantly alter any pixel anywhere on a screen, even if the screen is our universe. In this view, entangled photons just merge their processing until the next processing reboot.

Space curves: In Einstein’s vision, the sun keeps the earth in orbit by “curving” the space around it, but what exactly does space curve into? Space needs another dimension to do this, but string theory’s extra dimensions are “curled up” in our space, so they don’t allow it. In quantum realism our 3D space is a just a “surface” that can curve into a fourth dimension.

Time dilates: In Einstein’s twin paradox, one twin travels the universe while the other stays on earth, and the first twin returns after a year to find his brother an old man of eighty! In an objectively real world time is fixed but in our world it slows down as we go faster. Likewise, every gamer knows that the frame rate of a game slows down if the server is busy.

Randomness occurs: In our world, radioactive atoms emit alpha particles randomly, i.e. in a way that no prior physical “story” can explain. Randomness implies a physically uncaused cause that isn’t possible in a complete physicality. The many-worlds fantasy, or today the multiverse, was invented solely to deny quantum randomness. In contrast, the processor of a virtual construct can choose which quantum state becomes a physical state in quantum collapse.

Empty space is not empty: An objective space should be nothing but our space exerts a pressure. In the Casimir effect, flat plates in a vacuum placed close together experience a force pushing them in. Current physics attribute this to virtual particles created by the vacuum, but space as null processing is a simpler explanation.

Waves are particles: In Young’s two-slit experiment, one electron goes through two slits, interferes with itself to give an interference pattern, but still always arrives at one screen point. A particle can’t do this but a program can spread instances of itself like a wave but still restart at a point (quantum collapse) to arrive as a particle in one place. Processing can spread like a wave but reboot like a particle.

Every electron is identical: In our world, every photon, electron and quark is indistinguishable from every other one, just as if the same code generated all of them.

Quantum superposition: In quantum theory, currents can simultaneously flow both ways around a superconducting ring (Cho, 2000), and an electron can spin both up and spin down – until observed. Such combinations are not physically possible, so in current physics quantum states don’t exist, but in quantum realism an electron program can instantiate its code to explore both options.

Non-physical detection: Imagine a bomb so sensitive that even one photon will set it off. It should be impossible to detect, but scientists have done the physically impossible with a Mach-Zehnder interferometer (Kwiat, Weinfurter, Herzog, Zeilinger, & Kasevich, 1995). Current physics attributes this to quantum states that don’t exist but quantum realism lets those quantum states exist.

Retrospective action occurs: If the future can affect the past, causality fails and with it physics. Yet in delayed choice experiments, an observation made after a photon takes a path defines the path it took before the observation. This has led some to speculate that all time, like all space, already exists, allowing time travel and all the paradoxes it implies. In quantum realism program instances take all paths and the observation picks the physical event, so there is no time travel.

Anti-matter: Quantum equations predicted anti-matter, but no reason has ever been given why matter that inherently exists needs an inverse, of the same mass but opposite charge, at all. In Feynman diagrams, an anti-electron colliding with an electron goes backwards in time, but how it can enter an event in reverse time not explained. In contrast, processing by definition implies anti-processing, and if time is the processing sequence, anti-processing implies anti-time.

Each of the above alone is just odd, but together they form what courts call circumstantial evidence. They imply that the physical world is a processing output, so by the duck principle:

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

The ‘duck’ here is a virtual reality generated by quantum processing. Note that we would not doubt that the physical world was objectively real, if only it would behave so, but it doesn’t. In an objective reality time doesn't dilate, space doesn’t bend, objects don’t teleport, empty space is empty and universes don’t pop up out of nowhere. Since no-one has ever proven that the universe is not virtual, why is this option always dismissed out of hand? For example, Hawkings says:

“But maybe we are all linked in to a giant computer simulation that sends a signal of pain when we send a motor signal to swing an imaginary foot at an imaginary stone. Maybe we are characters in a computer game played by aliens.”

Then his next sentence was “Joking apart…” But why must it inevitably be a joke? Conversely, if we find that physical realism is impossible, the Sherlock Holmes dictum should apply, that:

“When you have excluded the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth”

If the physical world can’t be an objective reality, science must consider whether it is a virtual one."

[Viking]

7 hours ago, Saumaya said:

Thats because it doesn't work like that. You are consciousness(your true nature) itself, including everything as part of you. Who is being aware of who?

This where the truth part comes in, dissolve your ego and beliefs to such an extent that Truth is the only thing left. i.e You are it(consciousness). Abiding Non Dual Awareness.

 

@Nahm @Viking Thanks

it seems to me like in order to become aware of awareness i have to dissolve my beliefs about who i am  but in order to do that i have to become aware of awareness.

i feel like self inquiry is useless because i cant disprove that theres an objective reality. sure its groundless, sure it doesnt account in consciousness, but those things dont disprove it. i simply dont know whats true. to be certain of the consciousness paradigm i have to be certain that other paradigms are false, and i cant.

[Dodo]

1 hour ago, Viking said:

it seems to me like in order to become aware of awareness i have to dissolve my beliefs about who i am  but in order to do that i have to become aware of awareness.

i feel like self inquiry is useless because i cant disprove that theres an objective reality. sure its groundless, sure it doesnt account in consciousness, but those things dont disprove it. i simply dont know whats true. to be certain of the consciousness paradigm i have to be certain that other paradigms are false, and i cant.

No, you don't have to be certain other paradigms are false. 

The unique thing about consciousness is that you have a constant experience of it. That experience of being aware has not left you - ever (spoiler: cause it's you). We cannot be sure about things we are aware of, but we can at least speak with authority and be certain in that space-like awareness that knows experience. At least that is real. The rest can be a concoction in the mind of a 4-dimensional squirrel. I don't really and can't really know. What I can and do know is Consciousness. It's always available for study and you can't get any more real than that. 

Edited July 26, 2018 by Dodo

[Preetom]

@Viking

You don't have to believe something called a Consciousness model. That would be another believe system. The infinitely more important question is, why do you believe in a materialist paradigm? What are your assumptions and what proofs do you have to believe it?

And about Consciousness being a byproduct of matter, do you really know what matter is? 

Quoting from Rupert Spira, '' Matter was a concept created by Greek philosophers 2,500 years ago but scientists yet haven't found something called matter''

If you can dismantle your current beliefs, assumptions and then self-inquire from a place of unknowing, then there is a possibility that you might discover something new. If you try to get rid of a belief just to fill it back up again with another set of new stories, then that's futile.

[Dogsbestfriend]

@InfinitePotential Nice to see someone who has gone deep into so many phenomena.

In regards to reality, have you considered the possibility that it is both virtual and 'physical'? Sort of like compressed data that becomes physical/projected once consciously perceived (hence the observer effect).  

 

Wanted to add: http://www.quantumgravityresearch.org/ these guys have some out there concepts about reality and various vids about this reality being something projected from a 8d crystal.. whether I believe or completely understand what they propose is another matter

Edited July 26, 2018 by Dogsbestfriend

[Viking]

@Preetom but how do i get rid of a belief? and it seems very tricky not to replace it with another belief, how do i do that?

also how do i know that i got rid of a belief? its certain and obvious that i dont know that theres an external reality, but do i repeat it like a mantra every day until i stop believing it?

[InfinitePotential]

32 minutes ago, Dogsbestfriend said:

@InfinitePotential Nice to see someone who has gone deep into so many phenomena.

In regards to reality, have you considered the possibility that it is both virtual and 'physical'? Sort of like compressed data that becomes physical/projected once consciously perceived (hence the observer effect).  

 

Wanted to add: http://www.quantumgravityresearch.org/ these guys have some out there concepts about reality and various vids about this reality being something projected from a 8d crystal.. whether I believe or completely understand what they propose is another matter

Thanks!  And yes I've watched some videos about the 8d crystal, it's name is E8, which is basically an algebraic structure... the "largest simple exceptional Lie group" (all of those terms are mathematically defined).  Some surfer dude physicist Anthony Garrett Lisi wrote "An Exceptionally Simple Theory of Everything" where he argued that all the qualities of all the elementary particles and their interactions, all fundamental constants, etc can be described as quantum excitations of E8. 

I'm not sure how closely this aligns with the folks over at quantumgarvityresearch's (Emergence Theory's) views, but they both use the E8.  Emergence Theory seems to be stresses that consciousness is fundamental, as reality is made up of pixelated information, and information is meaning, which requires an interpreter or a subject to give meaning to the meaning.  Which I agree with.  It's a very sacred geometry kinda theory, which seems intuitive to me as reality is highly geometric (not like 3d shapes but like relationships between bits of information).  Of course mainstream science pays it very little attention.

These theories may turn out to be extremely useful someday, but I don't personally think we will ever have a true "Theory of Everything".  Perhaps a theory which unifies all 4 of the fundamental "forces" (strong and weak nuclear, electromagnetic, and gravity), but then why the standard model?  Why is reality like that rather than like something else?  Whatever answer you have, why that?  And so on forever.  Like when Professor Farnsworth in Futurama built a telescope that could see the fundamental structure of reality, thereby answering all problems in physics.  It still leaves open the question of why are things they way they are.  Besides, Godel's Incompleteness Theorem loosely says we can't have a  theory of "everything mathematical", and physics uses math so...

 

As for reality being both virtual and 'physical', yes definitely in the sense that once observed, things have all of the qualities we would ascribe to them were they physical... You see, feel, hear, taste, smell them, they have mass and energy, position, momentum etc.  As for them being objectively physical, I don't think so.  But then I tend towards thinking there is nothing objective to their nature... I like what Reality Transurfing has to say about reality, that reality is "free to manifest itself in infinite variety".  It can seem utterly physical, virtual, and probably all sorts of things that the human mind can't even imagine.

[InfinitePotential]

36 minutes ago, Viking said:

@Preetom but how do i get rid of a belief? and it seems very tricky not to replace it with another belief, how do i do that?

also how do i know that i got rid of a belief? its certain and obvious that i dont know that theres an external reality, but do i repeat it like a mantra every day until i stop believing it?

You don't have to completely rid yourself of beliefs (that's all but impossible).  Just relax your mind, even if only for a few seconds.  Relax your focus on all external objects, including your thoughts and filters on reality.  Even if only for a few seconds.  What you're left with is simply a feeling of existing.  An awareness that you are aware.  Awareness of awareness.

That feeling of existing is always there, it's just so often masked by being caught up in external reality, thoughts and objects, etc.  But no matter what's going on, it's there.  Just relax your attention.  It's a lot like a flashlight shining light on other objects, just turn the flashlight off for a bit.

[Preetom]

@Viking Here are some points to play with your beliefs. See what works for you.

1) Read eye opening, unpredictable books on non duality. Books that don't feed you more new beliefs but encourages you to explore your direct experience and verify if your beliefs are confirming your experience. Presence by Rupert Spira can be good place to start. The more you see the fallacy between your experience and your assumptions, the more the beliefs corrode over time. You see the illusion here? We have never experienced a something called 'matter', yet that's probably our most unconscious belief.

We believe in some external matter (external world) more than our existence itself. We think there always was, is and will be a world made of matter while I am nobody compared to that. We have such firm conviction on this thing called matter which we have never experienced, nor has it been discovered objectively. See the twist of belief here? God save us

2) Be aware of being aware/self inquiry. You don't have to know how it works. It just works! It's a dream law. If you focus more on consciousness rather than the objects in consciousness, then the objects will eventually erode and aware presence alone will remain. The dream contents (thoughts, beliefs) will loose it's hold and only the awakeness will remain. And all of this will happen 'behind your back'.

You can't fight against a belief with brute force. It only reinforces it. The only food your beliefs live on is your precious attention. So instead of drooling over your beliefs, pay attention to your attention. Be aware of being aware.

3) When you're in the state of unknowing, learn to live with it. Watch your tendencies to desperately trying to make sense of things mentally. Ask yourself, 'why do I need to believe in a thing?'. 'Is my reality evaporating before my eyes if I stop believing this?', ''Will my heart beat stop if I stop believing it?'', ''If nothing really changes why do I carry around this stuff in my mind?'' ponder on these questions. See for yourself that there is no solid thing residing in you. The only way this phantom self can appear to be real is through unquestioned thoughts and beliefs.

4) Take it easy. The purging of emotions and beliefs and embodiment are some of the most advanced works. No finite, limited mind can mathematically track it or make sense of it. The bulk of this work will be happening behind your back over the years. The best thing you can do is to stop feeding the self recurring thoughts and beliefs with your attention

Edited July 26, 2018 by Preetom

[Viking]

37 minutes ago, Preetom said:

Be aware of being aware/self inquiry. You don't have to know how it works. It just works! It's a dream law. If you focus more on consciousness rather than the objects in consciousness, then the objects will eventually erode and aware presence alone will remain. The dream contents (thoughts, beliefs) will loose it's hold and only the awakeness will remain. And all of this will happen 'behind your back'.

i said earlier that i have no idea gow to focus on consciousness

[Viking]

1 hour ago, InfinitePotential said:

You don't have to completely rid yourself of beliefs (that's all but impossible).  Just relax your mind, even if only for a few seconds.  Relax your focus on all external objects, including your thoughts and filters on reality.  Even if only for a few seconds.  What you're left with is simply a feeling of existing.  An awareness that you are aware.  Awareness of awareness.

That feeling of existing is always there, it's just so often masked by being caught up in external reality, thoughts and objects, etc.  But no matter what's going on, it's there.  Just relax your attention.  It's a lot like a flashlight shining light on other objects, just turn the flashlight off for a bit.

there seems like theres always something there, i can't not put my attention on something

[SoonHei]

@Viking hey

this morning i was listening to a Mooji clip on my drive in to work

 

he was talking with someone one-on-one and talking about her experience of find the self.

one thing he said which shifted my perspective in a different way (very subtle) was this:

 

girl was telling mooji she feels like she is free-falling... there is nothing to hold onto.. and it's a blind empty freefall

mooji then asks her that the one who sees this free-falling, is THAT falling? 

this is often said and i have heard this before... but coupled with this free-falling expression it just clicked to me that the ONE who SEES / IS AWARE of the feeling of free-fall - the place where that feeling is "registered" or watched... is that "PLACE" falling? where is that place...

 

it is the place-less place! it just IS and that ONE who sees or is aware of the free-fall just IS. it is BEING

 

i didnt have any direct experience but this made me see this in a different way than i have understood it before

[InfinitePotential]

39 minutes ago, Viking said:

there seems like theres always something there, i can't not put my attention on something

For sure.  I like to try to "ignore everything" (I mean everything), and it always seems like there's something there, like a subtle object that is "me".  You can always just realize that there is an awareness of that.  Just relax your mind/attention completely (can be difficult to do).  There will probably still be a visual, feeling, sensing field... Really, you can't become aware of awareness like you can other things, cause what's aware of being aware of awareness?  Maybe a better way of putting it is to "be" awareness.  Which is always the case, but you can really recognize it when you just relax and drop all effort.... Even besides all this spirtuality mumbo jumbo, relaxation is extremely good for you that which we call you....  This relaxation is actually your natural state.  Like, if you were to clinch your fist for a long time, eventually that might seem like your natural state.  And it would take some effort to relax it, after which you would realize, oh, that is actually my natural state.  Or tense shoulders, etc.

I think one of Leo's earlier videos was highly true, about 3 stages of meditation... first stage is to notice your thoughts (this is so crucial and this alone improves the quality of your life drastically.  A huge part of meditation is to not be lost in your thoughts.  Being lost in your thoughts has all kinds of negative consequences.  They're not just words playing in your head, but they even affect your physiology.  You start clenching muscles and tightening up.... versus relaxing and observing the thoughts go by and not attaching or clinging to them).  Second stage, drop the thoughts as they arise.  Third stage, aware of awareness.

Of course, there are other paths that may resonate with you more.  Sometimes I find that instead of ignoring everything, it feels better to try to notice everything.  Every aspect of my experience.  And the noticing of it becomes sorta effortless, and there's this automatic feeling of acceptance / love, even for the "bad" stuff and pain when you just notice things, as opposed to sorta being oblivious of them and at their mercy and reacting unconsciously to them.  It's like, stop and smell the roses (or the garbage).  Like widening the flashlight's beam of light to capture everything, or letting it freely go where it wants to and just resting effortlessly.... And then you may find that all the things you notice are simply made of the awareness of them (subjectively, not scientifically).  What else is there to a smell other than the awareness of it?  There's not a smell, and then awareness latching on to it.  It's just one seamless experience..... And when you've noticed every aspect of your experience it's like... wow, what lies beyond that.... ?

And then there's all the other consciousness work that's insanely good for you that isn't all about this aware of awareness business... Concentration, yoga, loving kindness, etc etc etc.

[Viking]

31 minutes ago, InfinitePotential said:

I think one of Leo's earlier videos was highly true, about 3 stages of meditation...

wow I watched that video so long ago and only now I realize it's importance.

 

Thanks, I have a vipassana retreat in a month, i hope ill see what you mean. im extremely mind dominant and my connection to the heart is very weak, so its going to be quite difficult, but ill push through  

regarding the belief work, I have peter raltson's the book of not knowing, which I started and dropped, maybe ill go back to it.