Mystical experiences vs radical recontextualizations

[tsuki]

1 hour ago, Zweistein said:

Wouldn't it be most beneficial for the world, if people currently at stage green would help to educate stages below? 

@Zweistein Regardless of the position on the spiral, one's beliefs about the world are projected as the world's benefit.
Educating others is nothing else than an attempt to make them conform to our beliefs.
I believe that the world have had enough of that.

How would green recognize that yellow is not orange? Green resists both.

Edited August 8, 2018 by tsuki

[now is forever]

@tsuki yes orange needs another approach one that’s more status relevant. like health, and identification and group dynamics and profit. longtime not short time.

orange would not go to participative green spaces, so those have to be built in neglected spaces. orange would profit from them though.

Edited August 8, 2018 by now is forever

[tsuki]

10 minutes ago, now is forever said:

@tsuki yes orange needs another approach one that’s more status relevant.

@now is forever Green does not reject status. Status is something different for it than for orange.
It is simply that status for Green is not in opposition to collective benefit.
It's about overcoming the duality of personal success and collectivism.
For Orange, personal success is opposite to collectivism because he is in reaction to Blue.

Edit: Sigh... you didn't say that it did reject status. Wrrr...

Edited August 8, 2018 by tsuki

[Zweistein]

Maybe it helps, if we look at our journey's first and once we understand them better, maybe it's easier to compare to what is in the books?
I will contemplate for a while ;-) I have a feeling that this topic is best approached in stillness, isn't it?

[now is forever]

@tsuki yes so it still has to be about money...personal benefits....freedom from blue. maybe i’m to far away from that. or too green myself.

maybe i don’t have any news for that, just that the hipster industry is quiet something to trigger/challenge that.

isn’t it already to deep in the details?...like zweistein said.

it feels like just repeating school content. so i would go back to the mushrooms. ?

Edited August 8, 2018 by now is forever

[Zweistein]

I have a feeling that what we will be able to do also has a lot to do with embodiment  
So, yeah, for "me" it's time to access a little .... 

 

[now is forever]

@Zweistein i don’t get it it’s a strangeloop in some aspects. 

there is no stop to growing i just also learned how to point fingers, to mushrooms.

no one ever said to stop pointing fingers at mushrooms and then if it’s possible to study them all - would need a lot of time doing that  - usually it’s only about studying one at a time , and then cooking something out of them. poisonous mushrooms are something else...they can blow you away. so better microdose them...

said alice and shrunk or grew.

so should we stop that project or not? is it any relevant? 

Edited August 8, 2018 by now is forever

[tsuki]

@Zweistein When you inspect growth, then you can divide it into chunks and call them whatever you please, like Fake and Real.
Fake and real growth are elements that resonate with each other.
All real growth becomes fake once you understand what you're doing.
It is only real because you identify with the part that you work on.
Realization of fakeness comes by noticing what does not change despite your efforts to change your whole identity.
Then, this real (but fake) area is dis-identified with and the lack of fixation is what opens possibility of noticing other areas.
Those areas, which are identified as constant (by neglect), are the new basis for identity.

This video is mostly targeted at the Orange viewer, as Leo assumes that real growth is inner growth.
Orange people work on money, as they identify with wealth. For them, it is as real as it gets.
Until of course, they turn green and notice the inner world.
There is also fake growth within inner growth.

Yes, @now is forever - it is a strangeloop.
There is no middle Matrioshka .

Edited August 8, 2018 by tsuki

[now is forever]

@tsuki that’s not true. there is a middle matrioshka. and it never gives up, that’s the problem, how can someone give up while reaching out for infinity. it’s just that infinity sometimes grows over the head. but now you are zooming again... giving up a relational system on the basis of education, that was quiet reflected... and often self introduced is not wise to give up. 

you both play a little good cop bad cop. while i’m asking for the relevance of this project.

Edited August 8, 2018 by now is forever

[tsuki]

@now is forever This difference keeps bugging me.
It is not a middle Matrioshka. It's only one of many Matrioshkas.
You can never tell it's a middle one until you open it.
My expectation is that there will always be a Matrioshka to open.
And every single one of them is the middle one until you do open it.

What I think we misunderstand about each other is that we both assume that the other stopped opening.
The phrase that 'there is no middle Matrioshka' means that there is no bottom to reach and be done with.

[Zweistein]

1 hour ago, now is forever said:

@Zweistein i don’t get it it’s a strangeloop in some aspects. 

there is no stop to growing i just also learned how to point fingers, to mushrooms.

no one ever said to stop pointing fingers at mushrooms and then if it’s possible to study them all - would need a lot of time doing that  - usually it’s only about studying one at a time , and then cooking something out of them. poisonous mushrooms are something else...they can blow you away. so better microdose them...

said alice and shrunk or grew.

so should we stop that project or not? is it any relevant? 

I wouldn't stop now, would you?
I just know that "I" will be contemplating for a while.... hope "you" have some patience, too, do "you"? ;-)
 

 

37 minutes ago, tsuki said:

@Zweistein When you inspect growth, then you can divide it into chunks and call them whatever you please, like Fake and Real.
Fake and real growth are elements that resonate with each other.
All real growth becomes fake once you understand what you're doing.
It is only real because you identify with the part that you work on.
Realization of fakeness comes by noticing what does not change despite your efforts to change your whole identity.
Then, this real (but fake) area is dis-identified with and the lack of fixation is what opens possibility of noticing other areas.
Those areas, which are identified as constant (by neglect), are the new basis for identity.

This video is mostly targeted at the Orange viewer, as Leo assumes that real growth is inner growth.
Orange people work on money, as they identify with wealth. For them, it is as real as it gets.
Until of course, they turn green and notice the inner world.
There is also fake growth within inner growth.

Yes, @now is forever - it is a strangeloop.
There is no middle Matrioshka .

Hmmm  @tsuki - how do you know that the video is mostly targeted to an orange viewer?
Doesn't real growth vs. inner growth equal real growth = inner growth?

Edited August 8, 2018 by Zweistein

[tsuki]

@Zweistein Because Leo explains his wisdom mostly in terms of material wealth vs inner wealth.
That's an Orange duality. Orange is blind to the inner wealth (mostly).
To Yellow - fake growth could be figuring out this new shiny theory to explain this particular problem.
When he keeps doing that and starts to gain momentum - at some point there is a brick wall that will resist him.
Hit enough brick walls and you will see the bricks.
It is then wise to bring a rope instead of a sledgehammer.

Shiny theories are an inner wealth, but to Yellow - they become fake at some point.

[now is forever]

39 minutes ago, tsuki said:

@now is forever This difference keeps bugging me.
It is not a middle Matrioshka. It's only one of many Matrioshkas.
You can never tell it's a middle one until you open it.
My expectation is that there will always be a Matrioshka to open.
And every single one of them is the middle one until you do open it.

What I think we misunderstand about each other is that we both assume that the other stopped opening.
The phrase that 'there is no middle Matrioshka' means that there is no bottom to reach and be done with.

yes but there is if you are centered in yourself it’s not a bottom but the outside is bottomless until it reaches some kind of other. if you see infinity, then yo can even see who is some kind of other just by smiling. i mean in recognizing other. 

it doesn’t mean there is nothing to work on anymore. it just get’s too many options for a problem solver - so you work where you meet meaning. until someone tells you to stop or you find some problems solved at least.

it sounds naive, but it isn’t it’s just foolish.

Edited August 8, 2018 by now is forever

[Zweistein]

13 minutes ago, tsuki said:

@Zweistein Because Leo explains his wisdom mostly in terms of material wealth vs inner wealth.
That's an Orange duality. Orange is blind to the inner wealth (mostly).
To Yellow - fake growth could be figuring out this new shiny theory to explain this particular problem.
When he keeps doing that and starts to gain momentum - at some point there is a brick wall that will resist him.
Hit enough brick walls and you will see the bricks.
It is then wise to bring a rope instead of a sledgehammer.

Shiny theories are an inner wealth, but to Yellow - they become fake at some point.

@tsuki Ok, another question 
How many people have told you that they want the old @tsuki back?

[tsuki]

8 minutes ago, now is forever said:

yes but there is if you are centered in yourself it’s not a bottom but the outside is bottomless until it reaches some kind of other.

@now is forever Now you're stretching the metaphor too thin.
What is outside of Matrioshka is not a middle Matrioshka .
I am not that as well .

[tsuki]

1 minute ago, Zweistein said:

@tsuki Ok, another question 
How many people have told you that they want the old @tsuki back?

@Zweistein Hahahahahaha

At first, some. Then we drifted apart.
Then, some others. Then we drifted apart.
Then I met the old ones that told me that they wouldn't have recognized me if the passed me on the street.
They seemed genuinely impressed, but they didn't stick.

Nowadays I just don't talk much about what I do in my free time with people.
They also don't ask questions, as we usually don't have anything common to talk about.
It doesn't make me feel lonely. On the contrary . I even started talking about the weather lately .

[Zweistein]

37 minutes ago, tsuki said:

@Zweistein Hahahahahaha

At first, some. Then we drifted apart.
Then, some others. Then we drifted apart.
Then I met the old ones that told me that they wouldn't have recognized me if the passed me on the street.
They seemed genuinely impressed, but they didn't stick.

Nowadays I just don't talk much about what I do in my free time with people.
They also don't ask questions, as we usually don't have anything common to talk about.
It doesn't make me feel lonely. On the contrary . I even started talking about the weather lately .

How many people, do you think, like the "new" @tsuki more than the "old" one?

[now is forever]

2 hours ago, Zweistein said:

I wouldn't stop now, would you?
I just know that "I" will be contemplating for a while.... hope "you" have some patience, too, do "you"? ;-)

no - i wouldn’t stop, too. yes i will have the patience, you can always say no, too. 

it’s an invitation though for others...

you see if there is no one to work on a problem, there is no one to work on the problem. that’s democratic. doesn’t mean the problem is resolved then. it just remains unsolved until it’s solved.

 

at least we don’t want to get the darwin award. it’s some kind of funny though. and sad. and triggers arrogance. it means it massively triggers orange. maybe i still don’t get the colours right.

Edited August 8, 2018 by now is forever

[tsuki]

36 minutes ago, Zweistein said:

How many people, do you think, like the "new" @tsuki more than the "old" one?

That's a tricky question.
Back then, I would rather be somebody I thought would make me acceptable.
Even if somebody liked me, then from the point of view of the new 'me', there was nobody to like there.
It was more of a mashup of reactions to projected expectations.

Overall, there are less people that consistently like me, but now at least they know me.
And, there are now long-lasting relationships where I can be 'me' despite the drama.
Other people are not a reliable source of acceptance if it's needed.

Why the questions though?

Edited August 8, 2018 by tsuki

[Zweistein]

5 hours ago, tsuki said:

Why the questions though?

@tsuki  How would "I" know? There is just this feeling that these questions are somehow important. Maybe not for "you" but for "me"? It could be because I'm reading "The heroine's journey" by Maureen Murdock and it's basically my life's story. It could be because I'm contemplating the differences/similarities between the hero's and the heroine's journey.

Actually, there are two more questions coming up (I guess for "me" - you don't have to answer them, if you feel they are useless to "you"):
Who are the most important people in your life? 
Are the seekers more important than the non-seekers?

Edited August 8, 2018 by Zweistein