Mystical experiences vs radical recontextualizations

[now is forever]

On 4.8.2018 at 0:54 PM, Leo Gura said:

@tsuki All language is dualistic. For language to work at all it requires making relative distinctions.

 

[tsuki]

@now is forever If you assume that, then I'm not using language at all.
I'm starting to get the impression that you just want to cuddle .

[now is forever]

mh that’s so dubble standard i better say nothing. 

i mean ambiguous, just didn‘t find the english word.

Edited August 7, 2018 by now is forever

[tsuki]

Sorry. I'm talking about my impressions, that's all.
Any comments about the discussions yet @dorg?

Edited August 7, 2018 by tsuki

[Zweistein]

4 hours ago, Zweistein said:

@tsuki

Do you think I do anything else than surrender to paradoxes? My thoughts feel like shapeshifters these days. I totally get your perspective - do you get mine, too? ?

Again, I love how you derive "your" perspective and it feels just like mine. ?

Let me rephrase @tsuki ?

Do you=I=we think we=I=you do anything else than surrender to paradoxes? 

The conversation we are having does feel a bit like cuddling, probably because it is so deep and we feel understood, maybe? Although I get the feeling that we understand less and less now the longer it keeps going ?, could it be so?

1 hour ago, tsuki said:

@now is forever

I don't think so. You seem to be aware of the possibility of what I am speaking about, but you seem to miss its depth.
I am not speaking to teach you anything. I am contemplating in relation to your responses and hoping that it brings you some benefit.
I am not taking responsibility for it, though.

 

[tsuki]

2 hours ago, Zweistein said:

Do you=I=we think we=I=you do anything else than surrender to paradoxes? 

@Zweistein From one particular perspective in which there is one particular paradox, then there is one particular I=you=we.
When I say that teacher=student it reveals a paradox in relation to 'the world needs healing'.
That particular paradox can be resisted, or surrendered to. When you resist, there is a boundary and 'the other'.
When this particular paradox is surrendered to, then there is one particular I=you=we.
From the point of many particular I=you=we, then yes - all that I=you=we can do is to surrender.
Over and over again. To many different paradoxes to arrive at many different I=you=we.

To me, all of those I=you=we bear a similarity between one another. 
They are all perspectives from which the total I=you=we can be observed.
What is common to all of them is what happens at the moment when resistance changes to surrender.
To embody this commonality and experience the total I=you=we, the duality between resistance and surrender has to be overcome.
From that point on, there is neither 'the other' nor 'I=you=we'.
From that point on, there is neither resistance, nor surrender.

Does this make any sense to you?
I can't really answer your question with a yes or no.
Such answers bear no meaning to me. They are both a lie.
That is because surrender and resistance are merging into indifference.

There is also a ridiculous sense in which I can understand your post.
You are identifying with I=you=we. I don't. There is no me to identify with anything.

2 hours ago, Zweistein said:

The conversation we are having does feel a bit like cuddling, probably because it is so deep and we feel understood, maybe?
Although I get the feeling that we understand less and less now the longer it keeps going ?, could it be so?

It is only cuddling if you expect a dualistic expression of language from which you can derive a X vs Y.
That something is more important than something else. That you should surrender to this and not surrender to that.
From this point of view, we're just taking our sweet time talking about nothing. That, or any other explanation about stroking our egos.

From the non-dual point of view, this is an exercise of our polar-thinking muscles which is very rare.
This is actually the first fruitful non-dual conversation that I have ever had.

The gradual drifting apart of understanding is expected. That is a contemplation, after all.
Its whole point is to deplete your knowledge. As I am doing that, I am building knowledge on how to deplete knowledge.
By doing that, I am preparing to do contemplation on the nature of contemplation.
The result of this is the lack of duality between resistance and surrender.

This conversation will end at some point in which we will miss each other completely.
But at that point, it will feel appropriate to do so. To me, it is not yet.
This was the point from the very start.

Edited August 7, 2018 by tsuki

[now is forever]

44 minutes ago, tsuki said:

This conversation will end at some point in which we will miss each other completely.

what kind of missing do you want to imply? 

sometimes you sound so arrogant tsuki and then again you are so selfreflected that it’s difficult to say anything against it. it makes it difficult to crack the nutshell.

? 

Edited August 7, 2018 by now is forever
i suppose today is fools day

[tsuki]

29 minutes ago, now is forever said:

sometimes you sound so arrogant tsuki and then again you are so selfreflected that it’s difficult to say anything against it

@now is forever Hahaha, you sound exactly like my fiancee .

29 minutes ago, now is forever said:

what kind of missing do you want to imply? 

Missing is missing. Mutual misunderstanding.
Either I will miss what you say or you will miss what I say. Or both, hopefully.
At that point, the conversation will end. Isn't it natural?

29 minutes ago, now is forever said:

it makes it difficult to crack the nutshell.

There is no middle Matrioshka .

Edited August 7, 2018 by tsuki

[now is forever]

@tsuki yes of course i got that. ☺️ but isn’t it also missing the conversation then. 

english is just such a wonderful language to play with words.

there is a middle matrioshka tsuki - always in everyone. 

as long as there is a little thunder left in the heart.

Edited August 7, 2018 by now is forever

[tsuki]

22 minutes ago, now is forever said:

@tsuki yes of course i got that. ☺️ but isn’t it also missing the conversation then. 

@now is forever Only when I miss you and you miss me, is when the conversation is not missed.

22 minutes ago, now is forever said:

there is a middle matrioshka tsuki - always in everyone. 
as long as there is a little thunder left in the heart.

Yes, there is always a matrioshka, but how do you tell that it's the middle one until you open it?

Edited August 7, 2018 by tsuki

[Zweistein]

15 minutes ago, now is forever said:

@tsuki

8 hours ago, Zweistein said:

@tsuki

 @tsuki

5 hours ago, tsuki said:

@now is foreverforeverforeverforeverfforeveforeverforeverforeverforever

Ignore these ? - that's just bug I encounter when typing this on the phone. ?

Seems like we could have an infinite conversation, couldn't we? But don't we stay stuck in our heads/fingers as long as we keep typing? Isn't it time to apply what we have learned? ?

[now is forever]

i really would like to open some more windows - but zweistein is right. maybe mañana.

[tsuki]

I agree.

[now is forever]

actually not really, because we should really understand this, i posted it already in @Zweistein journal. think it’s a basic for all dragon riders, to navigate.

in the center is the body/mind/society/home if you want to make changes you can always navigate with it. you could also bring them in different order and find out what mirror’s what the best. if it’s about the mirroring. maybe you have to do some zooming first. in the end i suppose it’s about holding the balance. even thought about some kind of tool - for the wall. but i suppose i won’t have the time to make it... could be a coworking project 

1.how to find love

2. how to keep love alive

3. sticking with it or going

4. how to develop potential in creating something (here it‘s related to career)

5. how to develop self-confidence

6. how to fail

7. how to develop selfawareness

8. how to interact/deal with others

9. how to be serene/composed

10. how culture can change your life

11. how to enjoy life

12. the meaning of life

 

found it basically on the streets like a fallen leaf from a tree. if it’s recontextualised, think there would be no harm in using it.

Edited August 7, 2018 by now is forever

[tsuki]

@now is forever The project you are aiming at bears resemblance to an ancient Chinese book called 'I ching'.
Some time ago @deci belle suggested to me that the version re-contextualized into Taoism is a very good starting point.
She suggested to me Taoist I Ching published by Shambhala.

I haven't read it yet though, as the language is too obscure to me for now.

[now is forever]

@tsuki mhh yes - i don’t know it. but it bears also resemblance to the bauhaus structure and to the structure of the buddhist wheele of rebirth and death. so it could also be used to figure that out....

not exactly, maybe but if we visualize circles in general as fragments of symbols it could be helpful.

not to forget spiral dynamics.

Edited August 7, 2018 by now is forever

[tsuki]

1 hour ago, now is forever said:

not to forget spiral dynamics.

@now is forever What do you think about this post in relation to spiral dynamics?
To me, all stages are the same and the model became unusable.

 

[tsuki]

There is a connection between I=you=we and embodiment.
When 'the other' turns to I=you=we, resistance is transformed to surrender.
Resistance is suffering. Surrender is bliss.

What is the relationship between I=you=we and embodiment?
Is embodiment the phenomenological description of bliss?

[Zweistein]

I'm currently reading "The hero with a thousand faces" by Joseph Campbell and "The heroine's journey" by Maureen Murdock, while drawing parallels to the "Never-ending story" by Michael Ende. I'm simply blown away by the amount of potential reframing ?

If we find similar patterns in different books and look at the variations, maybe we could come to an even deeper understanding?

[now is forever]

32 minutes ago, tsuki said:

@now is forever What do you think about this post in relation to spiral dynamics?
To me, all stages are the same and the model became unusable.

 

think if we use symbols, and make a tool like a mind map or something to draw on, everyone can put their stage in the different categories, themselves and just know where they are at.

mhhh - i think it might not be unusable but maybe just not yet developed enough.

maybe it’s also possible to colour the symbols...

might be better do develop it digital... but i like to work on the wall so something like a printable mindmap to download would be nice, too. 

 

how are all stages the same? your personal stages or stages of others?

Edited August 7, 2018 by now is forever