Involuntary Celibacy: Focus in Internal or External?

[MM1988]

What would you do if you just suck with women in the way that you just cant find one that would think of you as more than friend for about a decade and its causing you massive emotional problems and depression in your everyday life.

 

The advice I got from Leos videos on this are contradicting themselves. On one hand you should go inside and work these issues out because you are creating these bad emotions yourself. You also should not need a relationship in the first place. On the other hand the solution thats often recommended is going into PUA, talking to a lot of girls etc. which would seem like chasing an external fix to me. So what should you do if you have this issue?

[Emerald]

I think that just taking action is going to be your best bet. You can waste a lot of time in your head mulling over it. But it's basically a comfort zone where you can continue to solidify your pessimistic outlook on your dating prospects. So, I recommend going out and meeting some people. Go to a club where you can find women who are looking for something fun or romantic. And then just get some experience, even if it's just a one-night stand. I feel like once you get past that initial hurdle, you'll be able to realize that the thoughts you're thinking are just limiting beliefs with no basis in reality. I'm sure that there's nothing about you inherently that is keeping you held back in this avenue other than your mentality surrounding this issue. 

[MM1988]

1 minute ago, Emerald said:

I think that just taking action is going to be your best bet. You can waste a lot of time in your head mulling over it. But it's basically a comfort zone where you can continue to solidify your pessimistic outlook on your dating prospects. So, I recommend going out and meeting some people. Go to a club where you can find women who are looking for something fun or romantic. And then just get some experience, even if it's just a one-night stand. I feel like once you get past that initial hurdle, you'll be able to realize that the thoughts you're thinking are just limiting beliefs with no basis in reality. I'm sure that there's nothing about you inherently that is keeping you held back in this avenue other than your mentality surrounding this issue. 

I went for the "external fix" in clubs and in my social circle for about 7 years with no results, for the last about 2 years where i discovered actualized.org im focus on the internal with dailty meditation and a little bit on the external if an oppurtunity arises. Would be interresting to know if you could overcome these negative emotions and you biological urges completely without needing the external fix because thats the direction I start to prefer.

[Emerald]

38 minutes ago, MM1988 said:

I went for the "external fix" in clubs and in my social circle for about 7 years with no results, for the last about 2 years where i discovered actualized.org im focus on the internal with dailty meditation and a little bit on the external if an oppurtunity arises. Would be interresting to know if you could overcome these negative emotions and you biological urges completely without needing the external fix because thats the direction I start to prefer.

My thought is that there must be an issue with how you're approaching. It might be the vibe you're giving off. Often times, men with low self-esteem who lack self-confidence, unconsciously put a lot of pressure onto women. This makes them very uncomfortable. 

For example, when I was 20, I went out to a jazz/cigar bar and I met this guy who was kind of nerdy looking and overweight. But he seemed cool at first. We were playing chess upstairs. I knew he was interested in me, and I wasn't completely not interested in him. Either way, I was enjoying his company.

But then he got really insecure about messing up the interaction with me. And I realized that he was putting too much emphasis on the interaction. Like I knew that he felt like I held his worth as a human being in my hands. 

So, this immediately scrubbed all potential for romance or even friendship from my mind, because I felt that pressure that he'd unintentionally put onto me by giving me that much power and significance over him even in just having met him. 

But he asked for my number, and I gave it to him. I didn't want to hurt his feelings. And I gave him my real number too.

Unfortunately, I was very poverty-stricken at the time. And I couldn't even afford to keep the lights on in my apartment. And so, I wasn't able to pay my phone bill, and I never used it anyway. 

But one night, a few months later, I was out playing my guitar on the street. That was how I made my money at the time. And he walks by and confronts me about giving him a fake number. And he was pretty confrontational and aggressive about it.

So, I told him that it wasn't a fake number. And that I was struggling financially. And I showed him my phone, which I still had (even though I couldn't use it). So, that he could see that I hadn't given him a fake one. So, the situation de-escalated.

Then, I get a text from him a few minutes later, and I ignored it. Too much baggage, too quick. 

If you've ever had a person try to be friends with you too quick, it's the same thing. You know that person desperately need a friend, because they don't have any. But you also know that if you agree to be their friend, they will put too much emphasis on the friendship too quick.

Edit: I guess I did have my phone back on at the time. Otherwise, he wouldn't have been able to text. Either way, my phone was unpaid very often. So, when I gave him the number, he got the message that the number had been disconnected.

Edited July 22, 2018 by Emerald

[MM1988]

@Emerald There is defenitely something about the way im behaving. But its nothing gross, just something subtle that makes me look asexual to girls. Its rather an internal issue I think but I dont know where to look for whats the issue. its just something about my whole behaviour. I dont think even the girls couldnt point at it.

[Emerald]

2 minutes ago, MM1988 said:

@Emerald There is defenitely something about the way im behaving. But its nothing gross, just something subtle that makes me look asexual to girls. Its rather an internal issue I think but I dont know where to look for whats the issue. its just something about my whole behaviour. I dont think even the girls couldnt point at it.

It could be that you feel limited to the current persona that you have. Maybe you feel like you'd be being inauthentic to come across any other way. So, I would focus toward creating an understanding of yourself as being competent and and normal, and building up a new persona that reflects that. And be willing to bluff a bit.

The thing that separates the average person from a person who is needy, is just the way they come across. Most people have crippling insecurities. But on some, it's more obvious. So, to get past it, you might even try creating an alter-ego of sorts. This is essentially what teenagers do when they create their identity. And if they do so in a healthy way, they will be able to fit in. But if they don't create a persona that has the ability to blend and look normal, they will run into problems

So, that's probably what's brought you to where you are now. You've not created a persona that's well-adjusted to the social landscape and its unique challenges. And your self-defeating thought processes keep you trapped in that ill-fitting persona.

So, all you have to do is create one that is well-adapted. Then, once you can bring yourself above water with your persona, you can build it up even further in whichever way you want. 

But the one thing to realize is that ALL personas are created. And you can create your persona any way you want. The sky is the limit. The canvas is yours to paint on. So, paint something new. 

[MM1988]

@Emerald thanks I guess I could try that

[Leo Gura]

Both!

See videos:

• Paradoxes Of Personal Development
• How To Deal With Confusion

[Samra]

Hang out with girls. Learn how we function. Then you will no longer see women as "females" but rather as human beings and friends to hang out with. That takes away your desperation. Makes you cool and comfortable in your own skin around girls. And that is very attractive. 

[MM1988]

@Samra My only concern with that is that I know a lot of guys who have tons of female friends but get no action whatsoever, theyre just the best friends. On the other hand my sexually sucessful friends barely have real friends of the opposite sex and are quite misogynistic.

 

@Feel Good which book?

Edited July 22, 2018 by MM1988

[fireworld]

@MM1988  I do not believe you.

Either you are lying to us or you are doing something extremely offputting.

I know men who have extreme personal setbacks both emotionally and physically but still are able to get women. Either you have no standards on yourself, IE exercise, eat healthy, confidence, humor and so on or even if you don't have these things you are most likely not going out at all.

Most men in wheelchairs can get a woman, if a man like yourself, as you claim in previous posts that you are confident, hard working and generally good looking you must be either lying to us, or not going out and approaching women.

Under the very unlikely circumstance that I am wrong about this, go pay Todd Valentine to help you with your dating, take out a second mortage on your house if you need to get control over this.

Keep in mind that one of the most dangerous ideas of self-improvement especially when you are going for enlightenment is that you are going to get this crap about internal work, but you don't understand that this internal work is 50 times harder than learning about attraction and dating.

You can become an extremely skilled PUA in 6 months, most people who work on enlightenment don't reach it within 20 years.

Don't lie to yourself or us, go out and put standards on yourself and make it a rule that you go out at least 2 times a week and do 20 approaches each night, you will be drowing in the attention of women.

I say this with the hope of getting you pissed off, only because I was where you are now 10 years ago.

 

 

Edited July 22, 2018 by fireworld

[Consept]

@MM1988 To me attracting women is almost skillset that can be learnt, the reason i say that is because with us men we can become oblivious to the 'mating dance' and what women actually want, simply because unless we're incredibly attractive from a young age, we dont get women approaching us. Women, on the other hand will have to deal with men approaching from a very young age and are therefore a lot more experienced in knowing what turns them on or off. I say that because theres no shame in having to learn this as a skill, theres a lot you need to know and practice, confidence, congruency, non-neediness, putting yourself out there, but a lot of this will come if you make a commitment to be congruent to yourself. Im guessing that in interactions your doing what you think the woman wants you to do and possibly being 'the nice guy', point blank that doesnt work because its deceptive at its core, so if you can take this deception out of the equation and show your true self, as well some basics from PUA (non-manipulative) id probably recommend some rsd vids, then if you approach enough women theres no way you couldnt at least get some that are interested in you romantically.

Also the paradox of not needing a relationship or sex is true as well, you have to recognise that in reality it isnt actually that important, its just that we're constantly bombarded with how important it is. Because of this it stays in our mind and then when we actually talk to a female it suddenly becomes a 'high stakes' interaction that could change your life, fact is, its bullshit. Once you realise this and genuinely talk to people for fun or good vibes youll also notice a big change. Its like when youre a kid and you really want to stroke a dog, so you chase it and youre so desperate to touch it that your vibe scares it off and you never really get to stroke it, whereas if you just have a cool vibe and stay in one place, at some point the dog will come and say hello (not comparing women to dogs lol), but its the same thing with male and female interactions. If you have a cool vibe eventually someone will want to experience that vibe for longer. Give to give, dont think of what youre getting from it 

[Samra]

10 hours ago, MM1988 said:

@Samra My only concern with that is that I know a lot of guys who have tons of female friends but get no action whatsoever, theyre just the best friends. On the other hand my sexually sucessful friends barely have real friends of the opposite sex and are quite misogynistic.

 

@Feel Good which book?

Don't be concerned at this stage. If you can't even hang out with girls, how you gonna sleep with them? I don't agree with this whole "friend zone" concept. This is a high school concept. Are you in a high school? No. Adult world function differently. As a woman, if a guy can't even talk to me like a normal human being, I won't let them get any close. Also, I don't like guys sending sexy signals right off the bat. It's creepy. It's way more charming when guys are cool and trustworthy and not desperate. Go learn how to hang out with girls. 

Edited July 23, 2018 by Samra

[Capital]

By going out and talking to a lot of women , you are working on the internal at the same time  ! The internal changes when your external actions changes .. they are not two separate things .. but also you seem to me like a man who just go out without self correcting himself .. every time you go out try to learn something new and self correct yourself the next time .. don't just go out and do the same mistakes over and over again expecting a different results . 

[Emerald]

11 minutes ago, Samra said:

Don't be concerned at this stage. If you can't even hang out with girls, how you gonna sleep with them? I don't agree with this whole "friend zone" concept. This is a high school concept. Are you in a high school? No. Adult world function differently. As a woman, if a guy can't even talk to me like a normal human being, I won't let them get any close. Also, I don't like guys sending sexy signals right off the bat. It's creepy. It's way more charming when guys are cool and trustworthy and not desperate. Go learn how to hang out with girls. I have told this many times on this forum. 

I agree so much. If a guy comes right out with sexual/dating intentions toward me, it's such a turn-off. I much prefer a guy that I know who I have a platonic relationship with, who's maybe slightly flirtatious with me in an ambiguous way. And the more ambiguous the flirtation, the better. I don't want to know that he likes me. That's what builds up the tension is not knowing if he likes me like I like him. And I have to feel like he is selective with his sexual desires, and not just trying to find any woman, and wants me in particular. Self-control with sexuality is very important to me.

Then, I can wonder how he feels about me, and get excited at things unspoken. Then I can fantasize about the moment when things finally go in a romantic direction, which builds up more tension. A man who wears his sexuality on his sleeve, takes all the tension out of the situation. So, most of the time, it's too boring to feel anything other than platonic toward them. 

So, I agree. The person who posted would probably do well to get to know more women in a purely platonic way without needing it to move toward anything sexual. And eventually, someone will be interested in them if they aren't trying too hard. 

[Emerald]

21 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

I don't wanna start an argument here, but what women will tell you they want and what they actually want can be two different things.  I'm sure this is true for men too.  I learned long ago not to take dating advice from women.  And again, I'm not trying to attack anybody here.  I'm glad we all get to chime in on this.  And I'm not assuming you need to be as direct as I stated it.  That's what learning to flirt is all about.  I just laid my two cents on the issue starkly because that was the easiest way for me to communicate the information quickly and concisely in writing.  I never intended to say -- 'Hi I'm bob, I wanna have a sexual relationship with you.'  That would be be creepy, I agree.  I just wanted to give homeboy my two cents from dealing with these issues for many years now. 

I think the not taking dating advice from women thing can be generally true. Most women are told a lot of mixed messages about what they should and shouldn't want. So, it's a very difficult knot to untangle. And even when you untangle it, it takes a lot of bravery to admit to those things because there's always someone there trying to use it to demonize or oppress. 

That said, I do know what I want, and I imagine that most women work at least somewhat similarly. So, I think that it's important to listen to female perspectives on what they are interested in and how an attraction actually comes about from the firsthand experience. The PUA guys will tell you what works in a very specific kind of situation. But they won't necessarily understand the firsthand experience of how it works or why it works. You can only get 'what works' from them. So, to take advice only from other men on dating women is a little foolish. And I can tell by looking at it that most men who are taking the advice will get it all wrong.

But I understand why they only cover what works in particular situation. They basically boil down female attraction so that it becomes slightly more actionable to spark an attraction in a woman. But I can tell you that almost all the advice I've heard on the topic of how to attract a woman, would leave me (personally) just not very interested. 

I require a lot more platonism and ambiguity to build up the tension necessary to create an attraction powerful enough for me to really swoon for that guy.