Turquoise Stage and The Hero's Journey

[martin_malin]

Joseph Campbell writes:

‘’Mythology starts where madness starts. A person who is truly gripped by a calling, will sacrifice his security, will sacrifice even his life, will sacrifice personal relationships, will sacrifice prestige, and will think nothing of personal-development; he will give himself entirely to his myth…Maslow’s five values are the values for which people live when they have nothing to live for.‘’

The Turquoise and the hero are both viewed as crazy by the crowd.
They both transcend psychological models.
They both help raise the consciousness of the planet.
They were both unconscious at one point.

So, is the hero turquoise?
Or is the hero too attached to his myth?

Edited July 19, 2018 by martin_malin

[Nahm]

Heros come in all colors. In terms of numbers, I’d guess most are blue (community oriented), and a smaller percentage of a different style of journey are orange (self oriented). Unfortunately, many lives are voluntarily laid down in complete (& kinda honorable) ignorance. I would think turquoise has already completed a hero’s journey, enjoying the bird’s eye view of the hero’s still at play.

[Xenomorf]

I think the turquoise side arises when the "lone" heroes start working together with a common goal that is beyond them, while each appreciating the depths of self and how it contributes to : the process, path, journey, whatever 

Makes me think of the Star Trek bridge team. Think of how Kirk, Spock and everybody else operated like a whole, with all the things happening around them and no one was " I want this or that" or " I'm hungry" or "tired of the mission". Our minds are still fascinated by the perception of the ultimate border as something technological thus the inherit fascination for the all the "gadget"-ry and pew-pew and how cool everything was. Don't get me wrong I still drool on the inside when I watch. Anyways, I think that part is what most of the Star Trek fanboy community missed. Who knows ?

It's awesome to see people that appreciate the concepts of heroes, at least at an intellectual level.

#Awesome

Edited July 19, 2018 by Xenomorf
excluded some information

[MarkusSweden]

11 hours ago, martin_malin said:

Joseph Campbell writes:

‘’Mythology starts where madness starts. A person who is truly gripped by a calling, will sacrifice his security, will sacrifice even his life, will sacrifice personal relationships, will sacrifice prestige, and will think nothing of personal-development; he will give himself entirely to his myth…Maslow’s five values are the values for which people live when they have nothing to live for.‘’

The Turquoise and the hero are both viewed as crazy by the crowd.
They both transcend psychological models.
They both help raise the consciousness of the planet.
They were both unconscious at one point.

So, is the hero turquoise?
Or is the hero too attached to his myth?

First of all, what is a hero? Can someone be a hero without changing the world to the better? 

If That's the definition, one must ask if it's really possible. Humanity as a whole is very much imune to Truth/Love/wisdom. 

If you bring truth/Love/wisdom to the world you might be a Jesus-figure. But to what benefit? You will only have a small group of devoted people, and eventually you and your followers might get killed and others will create a religion out of your living that will only harm the world the end, a religion that had nothing to do with you. 

Light/high consciousness will always attract black, evil, low conscious shadows. Just like a fire it will eventually turn into nothing But black smoke. 

Edited July 19, 2018 by MarkusSweden

[Robert]

@martin_malin Joseph Campbell didn't know everything about what it means to be a true hero. He was a huge influence, especially in my field of study (storytelling), and I view him as a ridiculously big inspiration, but he was not able to reveal everything to us. One of the main reasons is because the myths/stories he studied only have proper resonance to aspects of the human psyche/experience that are suited for human beings up to his time period and no further, so they are too dated for a lot of human beings who live right now.

Also, I doubt Joseph Campbell was conscious enough to really understand true heroism. He seemed to know a lot about heroes, but not enough about the true hero.

The Hero's Journey or monomyth is just ONE type of myth out of many, and the myth form of storytelling continues to evolve to this day. The form continues to evolve as humans evolve, and it reveals more and more to us in the process.

The biggest thing that myth forms right now, such as the monomyth, are showing us is how to become more of a true hero. They show us ways of living (through the heroic actions of characters you read about or see on the page/screen) to bring you closer to God. In other words, closer to spiritual enlightenment. However, they do not tell you what a true hero actually is, or what God is, even though they bring you closer.

Many storytellers have tried to demonstrate what a true hero is, and not just through mythic structure but by narrative elements and techniques that tend to make the message easier to perceive, such as a strong theme or moral argument of a story, but I have yet to witness this done to its full potential. Pretty much every single person on Earth, including storytellers who study mythic structure in depth, simply do not know what a true hero is.

And in regards to Hero's Journey and stage Turquoise, the hero from those myths can be at a variety of stages. In fact, most that we've seen in both fiction and even real life are Green and below since that's where most of humanity is at right now. People are at the lower stages so they write fiction based on those lower stages and live their life - maybe as a hero, maybe not - stuck within those stages.

In the future, if the monomyth stays relevant, we will have more Turquoise mono-mythical heroes, but we're not there yet. So no, the hero on the journey isn't automatically Turquoise and a Turquoise person isn't automatically the hero. It all depends. Also, Turquoise isn't even the highest stage of Spiral Dynamics, so a true hero definitely can't be thrown there.

All in all, from a certain perspective, stage Turquoise and the monomyth are for children. And anyone who thinks those are the highest they can go just might be in for a rude awakening.

But I think it's an amazing thing for people to give themselves entirely to their myth. Love the way Campbell put it, resonates with me so much.

Edited July 19, 2018 by Robert

[Highest]

Reality can become mythological, surreal. It does start where madness starts. One realizes a lot in this madness, awakens to a lot. This myth becomes the hero's reality, existence.  It was too in my madness that I experienced a great many things. They are rare those who are able to live perfectly in this ''madness''. They are beyond the psychological state of most human beings, they have reached the potential of a human being,  and are therefore seen as insane and their reality seen as unreal. But it is trough conscious evolution that we see reality for what it truly is, that we see ourselves as what we truly are. And this spiritual madness is actually no madness at all. 

[martin_malin]

2 hours ago, Robert said:

@martin_malin 

The biggest thing that myth forms right now, such as the monomyth, are showing us is how to become more of a true hero. They show us ways of living (through the heroic actions of characters you read about or see on the page/screen) to bring you closer to God. In other words, closer to spiritual enlightenment. However, they do not tell you what a true hero actually is, or what God is, even though they bring you closer.

Great post Robert! To me, a true hero is a person who is fully engaged in his myth while knowing it's just a game. As for Joe Campbell, he really seems to have been quite advanced. Take for example these two quotes from Pathways to Bliss :

''There is no experience of life that doesn't have dualism and yet doesn't have the experience of oneness behind the experience of dualism.''

''Normally, Yahweh is the god of a moral order where there is good and evil. But look at his justification of his actions to Job, and you realize this is a power beyond morality.''

Edited July 19, 2018 by martin_malin

[Xenomorf]

To summarize 

 

[Robert]

@martin_malin He was way ahead of his time, no doubt.

[Leo Gura]

 

[now is forever]

i wonder about the heroines journey - think that we have to research in way older mythology than most of the stories available now. maybe that’s why i love momo and pipi longstockings.

i just watched the heroes journey - with the actual different filter glases i got myself through the transcendence of realizing again what it means to be a woman in this world. i thought wait a minute - the woman behind the dragon? i like the game of thrones version better - riding a dragon would be the modern version. waiting for what hero to come? and if he doesn’t? so riding the dragon might be much more fun. 

actually in that sense, it’s quiet serious i don’t know if it’s so good if the hero slays the dragon - in the never ending story he is a dragon rider, too.

maybe he goes out to kill a dragon but instead he just tames the dragon?

the question is what’s the dragon.

Edited July 21, 2018 by now is forever
heroin and heroine ;) definitely not the same

[Leo Gura]

8 hours ago, now is forever said:

the question is what’s the dragon.

You, of course

[Robert]

15 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

 

This is one of my favorite videos by you, I watched it several times before. However, what you're talking about in this video is only the journey of a hero, not the journey a true hero. There is a difference between the two, believe it or not.

With that being said, what you spoke about in the video is not the highest journey for anyone, and Ryokan deciding to spend the rest of his life in his "lonely hut" does not make him a true hero.

10 hours ago, now is forever said:

i wonder about the heroins journey - think that we have to research in way older mythology than most of the stories available now. maybe that’s why i love momo and pipi longstockings.

i just watched the heroes journey - with the actual different filter glases i got myself through the transcendence of realizing again what it means to be a woman in this world. i thought wait a minute - the woman behind the dragon? i like the game of thrones version better - riding a dragon would be the modern version. waiting for what hero to come? and if he doesn’t? so riding the dragon might be much more fun. 

actually in that sense, it’s quiet serious i don’t know if it’s so good if the hero slays the dragon - in the never ending story he is a dragon rider, too.

maybe he goes out to kill a dragon but instead he just tames the dragon?

the question is what’s the dragon.

This is a good case in point for what I said about Joseph Campbell's model being a bit too dated. During his time period, the life of women on Earth was different than how it is now, probably to the same capacity that society as a whole was different than how it now. This is a clear example of what causes the myth form to evolve and expand in order to fit the aspects of the human psyche/experience that are most relevant and can relate to more people of future generations. Instead of just following Joseph Campbell's model exactly and constricting their scope of imagination, there are storytellers that tell tales which cover even more aspects of human life that couldn't be addressed due to the limitations of the monomyth. These tales that are told all have consistent plot beats based on whatever issue is being faced by type of myth at hand. For the example here, the issue we are facing is the female experience since the monomyth is male-oriented (thus being called the "hero's" journey and not the "heroine's" journey). So in writing circles we tend to call the more female inclusive myths, the ones that address the female psyche to a larger degree, "female myths." They are specific types of myth that have different plot beats than the monomyth. Similar, since both are myths, but different. They addresses the female psyche more instead of the male psyche that is clearly more likely to not hesitate in slaying the dragon. Therefore, what we have here is a subtle but broad evolution that keeps the myth form alive and moving, which we need in this world. It's just one example and shows that we can't rely on the monomyth forever. It just doesn't work.

That's why right now I'm actually working on what I hope to be a female myth. However, since I know that a good storyteller doesn't cling to ideas of how his story should be and he is always open to making changes to his work - by literally throwing out entire acts of a script or chapters of a novel - in order to tell the best story possible, I don't know if what I'm working on now will be a female myth in the end. It would sorta break my heart if I have to change my main character back to being a male (which I originally thought of when I came up with the idea of the story). But I really think by the time I'm done my character for that story will be a female. I really think so. There is hope, lol.

[now is forever]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You, of course

don’t think so and yes, partly. depends on the point of view and how i represent what. my dragon is not automatically everyone else’s dragon but it can be. for me it certainly is part of me.  but it’s also part of universal consciousness. the dragon defines the hero and the hero can define the dragon.

Edited July 21, 2018 by now is forever

[now is forever]

@Robert nice! good luck - it’s certainly not easy.

[Emerald]

19 hours ago, now is forever said:

i wonder about the heroins journey - think that we have to research in way older mythology than most of the stories available now. maybe that’s why i love momo and pipi longstockings.

i just watched the heroes journey - with the actual different filter glases i got myself through the transcendence of realizing again what it means to be a woman in this world. i thought wait a minute - the woman behind the dragon? i like the game of thrones version better - riding a dragon would be the modern version. waiting for what hero to come? and if he doesn’t? so riding the dragon might be much more fun. 

actually in that sense, it’s quiet serious i don’t know if it’s so good if the hero slays the dragon - in the never ending story he is a dragon rider, too.

maybe he goes out to kill a dragon but instead he just tames the dragon?

the question is what’s the dragon.

Maureen Murdoch wrote a book titled "The Heroine's Journey". I found it a lot more relevant to my life than Joseph Campbell's "Hero with a Thousand Faces." 

At the end of the Hero's Journey, there is the return to the motherland symbolizing the return to the feminine. So, a lot of the hero's journey is about going out into the world and overcoming obstacles and returning to the motherland (the feminine) in a more exalted state. And yes, the dragon is a symbol of the Shadow Feminine, just like Medusa, Sirens, and other feminine monsters. 

So, Maureen Murdoch had asked Joseph Campbell, if there was a journey that women had to take; a heroine's journey. And he basically told her that women are already in the place that the male hero is trying to get to. So, he said there is essentially no journey for women, because they're already there. 

But because that wasn't satisfying (and also wasn't true), she decided to write the book, "The Heroine's Journey." And reading it cleared up so many things for me.

The heroine first departs from the motherland, just as the hero does. They either have to reject the good mother or the tyrannical mother. Both must be rejected. They experience the severance of that which is most similar to them (the feminine), divorcing themselves from the mother and suffering the mother wound. They then embark upon a similar journey to the male hero following the boon of success. But the difference is that there is an inversion about mid-way through the journey.

When following the boon of success and facing the obstacles and gaining success, they recognize the mother wound and their dis-satisfaction, which causes them to turn inward. 

Then comes the descent into the Underworld. A common heroine's myth is the myth of the Goddess Inanna who must descend into the Underworld to meet her sister Ereshkigal who is the queen of the Underworld. But in order to be allowed to enter the Underworld, she must shed all of her status symbols. Then, as she descends even deeper, she must shed all of her garments. And as she descends even deeper, she must allow herself to be dismembered completely.

So, esoterically speaking, this is all about the journey into the subconscious and the connection between the psyche and the Self (with a capital S). But in order to make that journey, all attachments need to be relinquished to be allowed to descend.

Then, after the descent to the depths of the Underworld, there is ascension where a more exalted version of the heroine emerges. Much like a Pheonix who was weak and disintegrated into ashes, then rose even stronger from the ashes. Then, there is a return to the motherland and the feminine, which heals the mother wound. 

Now, heroine's journeys are not as commonly written about or depicted as hero's journeys. Like, the majority of all stories ever written are hero's journeys, because we live in a masculine-oriented society. But if I had to name a couple heroine's journeys, I think "The Wizard of Oz" is a great example of a heroine's journey, as well as "Alice in Wonderland."

But the main difference between the hero's journey and the heroine's journey, is that the hero's journey is mostly about the external landscape and the heroine's journey mostly about the internal landscape. 

That said, every single person who wants to exalt themselves to their highest and reach their fullest potentials will have to go through both the hero's journey and the heroine's journey, many times over the course of a lifetime. But I definitely resonated more with the heroine's journey at the time that I read it. It really fit me so much better than the hero's journey, even though I had already been on a handful of different hero's journeys. 

 

[Zweistein]

@Emerald aha, my next book ? Thank you, Emerald! It makes so much sense all of a sudden!

[now is forever]

@Emerald sounds fitting. thank you! think the dragon can be also masculine though and part of the heroes inner journey, too. or just fear of the unknown - or even the luck or selfesteem. in the heroes journey it sits between both. so maybe it is just what has to be singled out. to name it and understand it - might also depend on how abstract the grail is, what kind of goal it represents for the searcher. it‘s a nice picture, to reflect on.

also interesting how asian dragon mythology is different from western mythology. but asian cultures have not seen nature as something to fight against initially, that’s more a western habit.

if you look for pictures of asian dragons you may often find two dragons fighting against each other, or circulating around a center point. it‘s also sometimes a phoenix and a dragon.

so symbolically they are one step deeper. but also less easy to grasp. they are more like the yin and yang principle, but show how they are initially both present in one and the same person but with some attributes.

Edited July 21, 2018 by now is forever

[Zweistein]

@Emerald I just wanted to say thank you! This book is by far one of the most eye-opening books I have read!!! 

[Emerald]

@Zweistein You're welcome! I'm glad that you enjoyed it. There are a ton of books in that genre of the Feminine principle and Jungian archetypes. I can recommend some more if you want.