Why would anyone want enlightenment?

[Solace]

@Stretch You can either choose love or choose fear. It’s that simple. Enlightenment is the natural consequence of love.

 

Edited July 17, 2018 by Solace

[Solace]

@Stretch You’re right  There never was a “you” to begin with. This separate identity is an illusion. But that dosen’t mean you won’t have individuality once you become enlightened for that is apart of our true identity as the soul. 

When there is no separate identity, there is nothing in the way for the love of you, as your soul, to fully express itself in this material world. Thus you will always be in a natural state of joy and bliss. 

One is only afraid of the emptiness when they have the illusory identity of a separate self. All of your fears will be healed and resolved through surrender, that you can trust.

Love is always the only answer you’ll find. No matter how much you try to conveptualize enlightenment, the mind cannot come to a certain conclusion due to its limitations. That’s why you’re much better off meditating rather than thinking about what enlightenment is. If you can describe it with words, it’s not enlightenment.

Love, and oneness.

 

Edited July 17, 2018 by Solace

[Victor Mgazi]

@Stretch I think you missed my point. Awakening is not about ending the dream ,you can't end something that has no beginning. It's simply about being aware of the dream, the same way you would be aware in an actual dream that you are dreaming so even if you get shot(or be held at gun point) in the dream that wouldn't matter to you. Awakening is not suicide or death, it's the realization that there is no one to commit suicide or die. Similar to the way that there's no one to get shot in the dream. Everyone (including you) in that dream are happening in your head and even in this reality. You are simply part of the dream and once you awaken you will still be part of the dream because you only exist in this dream. Even the concept of a truth is part of the dream, everything you know is part of the dream! So yeah you can choose to be conscious of that or not. Maybe you like all the pleasure and pain in this dream so do what you will. It's very simple. 

[Guest]

@Solace @Victor Mgazi Thanks guys, those are some good points. Again, I'll have to mull those ones over.

[tsuki]

Quote

Why would anyone want enlightenment?

@Stretch

That is a big mystery for me as well.
First of all, unless you are enlightened - you have no idea what you are looking for.
No description can amount to what will be revealed once you get it, even this one.
Therefore - the only reason for searching enlightenment is ignorance.

The real question is: why would persistence in being ignorant grant you wisdom?
All of us are already enlightened from the moment we were born, so the seeking is really a way to understand our true nature that we have access to RIGHT NOW (not to confuse with an idea of a being present).
To me, it seems like there is this seed, or idea of 'enlightenment' that we accumulate at some point and as we naturally expand, it becomes apparent that what we experience matches up with what has been described in various ways.
This expansion is what enables us to gradually let in more and more things at once and see a universal pattern.
This universal pattern is what is the Realization. Absolute relativity. Śūnyatā. Wisdom.

Ignorance gives rise to wisdom, because ignorance and wisdom are an expression of one 'thing'.
From the point of view of enlightened person, everything is one and therefore - nothing exists (in a sense).

Edited July 17, 2018 by tsuki

[Emerald]

6 hours ago, Stretch said:

So @Emerald you're saying there's no need for meaning beyond ego because your existence is already enough without it.

Well, there will sometimes be a need to create meaning for practical functioning. For example, if you're reading a book, you will still need to be able to translate the squiggles on the page into words. And you will still need to be able to function as an individual self in the world, just like everyone else. The mind and its meaning-making functions exist for these practical functions.

But there will be no need to apply the intellect's tools of meaning, purpose, value, worth, etc. to existential concerns of the self and of reality itself. You will be okay with things just being as they are without needing to define their significance or contextualize it in a greater and more valuable system.

Basically, you will see meaning for what it is... just a tool for the human mind to use for certain functions in life. 

Edited July 17, 2018 by Emerald

[Nahm]

Cause to live is a game, but if you’ve got it backwards it’s evil, and when the I is gone, there’s a big O!   And now it’s love. 

 

[Robert]

@Stretch Truth.

[Guest]

@Mikael89 I may have been unclear. I'm not saying consciousness can be annihilated. I'm not even saying phenomena can be annihilated, just that to the enlightened it wouldn't make any difference if it was. If you're so indifferent to the world that you couldn't care less whether all phenomena disappears tomorrow or continues, what difference does it make whether it does or it doesn't? So it is annihilation.

Re reincarnation, my mind has long been open to that concept (it makes sense), but I don't believe dogmas without evidence and certainly wouldn't bet the governing strategy of my entire life on it. In any case, it's beside the point, we're not considering actually committing suicide, we're using it as a thought experiment. Think of a time when you didn't know about enlightenment or believe in reincarnation. Someone says 'Life sucks. Why don't you kill yourself? Then you'll know what happens when you die'. Would you have done it? It's the same question.

Re 'life is bullshit', perhaps this summarises our differences and reinforces my point about the reasons anyone would want to be enlightened. I don't think life's bullshit.

....................................................................................................................................................................................................

I won't have internet access for a few days now so I'm going to wrap up my part in this discussion. I know I've been provocative, and I'm sorry if I've ruffled anyone's feathers, but I stand by my tiny effort to balance a discourse that too easily leads to unrealistic expectations and a careless 'of course enlightenment' perspective. Views some have expressed here such as 'there are no cons to enlightenment' reinforce my theory that many seekers don't know what they're asking for, and are expecting a big pay off that isn't going to happen. 'There are no pros or cons to anything' might make more sense, but could you say it and mean it? I used to think enlightenment was a no-brainer, too, but you know what - there is absolutely no obvious answer to whether it's a worthwhile pursuit. From the perspective of the human being, of course it isn't. From the perspective of God, nothing's worthwhile, who cares?

For my part I will be probably be contemplating this for a while before deciding whether I return to seeking or not. Special thanks to @Solace @Emerald @Victor Mgazi for the food-for-thought.

Edited July 17, 2018 by Stretch

[Victor Mgazi]

@Stretch@Mikael89

10 minutes ago, Mikael89 said:

I think I'm conscious of it already but let's play a bit more..

Careful not to mistaken intelligence for consciousness, they aren't the same thing. Your ability to learn (acknowledge things) has nothing to do with being conscious. Remember that you are only a biological machine and like other technological machines (computers) you can acquire knowledge but that doesn't mean you are conscious of it, it just means that you have intelligence which is necessary for our survival as a species . 

Of course the intelligence is not really your's since there's no person to possess it, it belongs to the universe. 

[Victor Mgazi]

@Mikael89

"I am consciousness." "my mind... "

Can you see how the ego is trying to expand itself? All these personal pronouns - as long as there is identification going on there will not be awakening any time soon. Just mere beliefs. 

 

[Saumaya]

On 16/07/2018 at 3:08 AM, Stretch said:

Hi all,

A provocative post for you. The point of this is twofold: (1) to get feedback on a fresh perspective that I’ve been developing in the last few days, which is calling into question my search for enlightenment, and (2) to play devil’s advocate for anyone who may have found, as I have, a tendency within themselves to view the prospect of enlightenment through rose-tinted glasses (that is, as a subtly egoic aspiration). Enlightenment may well be, as Leo proposes, the end goal of self-actualisation, but I think it’s seriously worth challenging whether this is what we really wanted when we signed up for the project.

Let me preface this also with a note that in indigenous communities enlightenment is often considered a divine burden; they are confused by westerners’ desire to become shamans.

Let’s examine my current view of the pros and cons…

Pros

• You know the truth
• You suffer no more
• You’re free (from the game of life)

Cons

• You give up your life
  • (both in terms of actually dying, and of giving up attachment to all the content of your life. Leo has rightly emphasised this total annihilation)
• Existence becomes totally, 100% meaningless and empty
  • (strictly speaking, life is meaningless and empty anyway, at least from the perspective of truth, but from the worldly perspective we might currently operate from, life is rich, complex and meaningful)

So, enlightenment amounts basically to whether you want to end your life, either because you’re tired of the pain of living in the world, or because you just have to know the truth, at all costs (and I mean ALL costs - it will cost you everything). Of course, if you’re after happiness, mystical states, feelings of peace, love, joy, or contentment, then seeking enlightenment is a misguided effort. You can’t hold onto any of this if you’re going for enlightenment. You won’t gain anything. Your life will not improve, it will end. You will no longer be here on the material plane.

I think it’s particularly worth posting this question in this forum, because if any of you, like me, became excited about the idea of enlightenment within Leo’s original context of ‘creating an amazing life’, you may also find yourself realising that the two are not compatible. Enlightenment won’t give you an amazing life, it will extinguish your life.

I'm not criticising Leo here, he's said a lot of this himself. But I wonder if there are others among you who, like me, were drawn to spirituality, self-actualisation and actualized.org because we wanted a happy life, but have found ourselves instead moving towards death.

What do you guys think about all this?

Actually its better not to pursue enlightenment if you arent ready for it. For most people who actually got enlightened, they never had any say, they were drawn to it.

[ajasatya]

3 minutes ago, Saumaya said:

Actually its better not to pursue enlightenment if you arent ready for it. For most people who actually got enlightened, they never had any say, they were drawn to it.

i agree.

very feel people are blessed with the huge amount of true emotional suffering that's needed. most people are just seeking some kind of external approval through kindness and/or intellectuality.

[Saumaya]

10 minutes ago, ajasatya said:

i agree.

very feel people are blessed with the huge amount of true emotional suffering that's needed. most people are just seeking some kind of external approval through kindness and/or intellectuality.

Its interesting that you say that. I think when people start sensing their illusory nature and start seeing that what they really want is freedom in the sense a reality where they are not identified with anything; Then only they are ready for enlightenment. They may realise this consciously or unconsciously, but the longing is there.

[Victor Mgazi]

@Mikael89 I'm afraid you will have to reflect deeper my friend. 

The absolute doesn't speak nor identifies (it doesn't act). When you say I is consciousness that implies there is something it is not. The ego is part of the universe and the universe is part of infinity. There's no person here, just experience (now).

Let's not create stories for the sake of understanding consciousness intellectually other wise this might as well be a religion. 

[Victor Mgazi]

@Mikael89 I understand that these people are teachers so I'm not going to agree or disagree with their statements (or methods of teaching) simply because they are teachers and it's their job to teach, even if it means creating concepts or stories for the sake of people understanding spirituality when learning. 

I'm only asking you not to cling on these stories because they only attempt to point to the truth but not actually reveal it. You have to shift from this level of thought-stories to a more higher position where truth looses meaning then you will understand what I mean when I say the absolute doesn't speak or act, it simply IS. There's no need for a reason or justification for having things the way they are now. This "Source playing with duality,it choosing... " is really not necessary because it doesn't need a cause or reason of being. Things are the way they are because it is (this event) part of infinity. 

hope I made myself clear 

 

[Nahm]

27 minutes ago, Mikael89 said:

although a ridiculously small aspect

Uh uh. No sir. That is (and I apologize for the dualistic word) incorrect. 

You are the One you speak of. There is nothing small about you. ??

[Justin Evans]

I recently lost my best friend, potentially my whole friend group, my original career path, and "relating with others like I used to" because of my journey. 

The lesson I learned was that the costs of seeking truth are immense, but the rewards are the of the greatest yields in life.

Here is the catch, if you halfway pursue the journey, the costs will be detrimental and you probably won't get much in return. In that case it's not worth pursuing truth. That indecisiveness is the downfall.

In my opinion, it's worth it, IF we go all in and fully commit.

Edited July 18, 2018 by Justin Evans

[Ananta]

7 hours ago, Victor Mgazi said:

@Mikael89

"I am consciousness." "my mind... "

Can you see how the ego is trying to expand itself? All these personal pronouns - as long as there is identification going on there will not be awakening any time soon. Just mere beliefs. 

 

Oh boy ?, don't be the personal pronoun police, language is dualistic. Stating, "I AM consciousness" is correct, in my view (you are the ocean, "seemingly" appearing as a wave...the wave can know, it's the ocean, by realizing it ain't really a wave!).

The mind realizes it is consciousness/awareness, "not" a body/mind. If this wasn't so, you wouldn't be able to communicate this realization, nor would any master/guru.

Sorry for butting in my 2 cents. 

 

Ps, its only belief if one hasn't had the realization they ARE awareness/consciousness yet. You don't know what someone has realized or not by their use or not, of pronouns. That's just silly. People don't go around talking about themselves in third person.

Edited July 18, 2018 by Anna1

[Ananta]

7 hours ago, ajasatya said:

very feel people are blessed with the huge amount of true emotional suffering that's needed.

Ain't that the truth! ??