Why would anyone want enlightenment?

[Guest]

@cirkussmile That's a true statement but don't see how it relates.

I wondered what I'd hear from you guys in defending enlightenment and all I'm hearing so far is parroted dogma, superficial or ego-driven understandings of enlightenment that fail to appreciate the depth of sacrifice involved, and kamakaze commitments to 'truth for truth's sake, whatever the cost' that I just can't relate to.

Sorry if I come across belligerent here but my world is being turned upside down - I've made my entire life about enlightenment and it's starting to seem I've been running a fool's errand.

 

Edited July 16, 2018 by Stretch

[Bobby]

@Stretch you haven’t understood what emptiness actually is.

[cirkussmile]

1 hour ago, Stretch said:

@cirkussmile That's a true statement but don't see how it relates.

I wondered what I'd hear from you guys in defending enlightenment and all I'm hearing so far is parroted dogma, superficial or ego-driven understandings of enlightenment that fail to appreciate the depth of sacrifice involved, and kamakaze commitments to 'truth for truth's sake, whatever the cost' that I just can't relate to.

Sorry if I come across belligerent here but my world is being turned upside down - I've made my entire life about enlightenment and it's starting to seem I've been running a fool's errand.

 

Do you see that this is more about you than Enlightenment? 

Seeking enlightenment is confusing, hard and crazy sometimes but enlightenment in itself is the most natural thing there is.

Enlightenment is end of suffering and right now you are suffering because of your thoughts and attitude towards enlightenment as a concept. Just because you dont get it doesn’t mean it’s impossible.

Don’t make enlightenment about you. 

 

Edited July 16, 2018 by cirkussmile

[Guest]

@Mikael89 Sure, my mind is rebelling totally. That could be said of anyone who ever changed their mind. Only if you already assume that enlightenment is a desirable thing does that become a concern.

And lol, yeah if I ask a teacher of enlightenment they're sure to promote enlightenment. If I ask a teacher of terrorist suicide bombing they're sure to promote suicide bombing. Doesn't make it a good idea.

@Bobby Go on then, what have I missed?

@cirkussmile  Yes, enlightenment is the end of suffering, and is natural of course, as it's truth. We're going round in circles here, that was established at the beginning.

[Hello from Russia]

Yeah, I resonate with you on this. Been studying a lot on this topic recently and I too fail to see how pure enlightenment and pursuing pure enlightenment will make my life amazing. Maybe I need more life experience and more frustration and discontent with life (with myself) to really have a motivation to do it, I don't know.
However, I still do like these concepts  "life is just a game and you can play it however you want and it doesn't matter in the end", "life is an illusion", "we live in the matrix". I'm just not ready to die... yet? I don't know, I really don't fucking know anything, man. Sometimes I feel like we dellude our selves here big time with all this "killing-ego" stuff. 

Although spiritual practices and thinking on this existential level didn't necessarily make me more happy,  they gave me a ton of equinimity and sort of "peace". I became way less reactive over the last year cause I have an understanding (or maybe it's just a belief rather) that nothing really matters anyway. And it's kinda depressing at times

Edited July 16, 2018 by Hello from Russia

[Guest]

@Mikael89 Re your first post, yes I will observe. Re your second, I wonder if you misunderstood what I said as your responses don't make any sense to me. I was challenging your deference to the views of teachers of the subject, who have a vested interest, or at least a bias.

@HelloFromRussia  Right. Like me, you want the adventure of life, not death.

Edited July 16, 2018 by Stretch

[Emerald]

8 hours ago, Stretch said:

 

@Emerald A thought-provoking counter-argument. I, too, have experienced non-duality, so I know that reality doesn't disappear. But it seems that what's required to achieve the permanent transcending of illusion is to let go of everything. You don't just let go of your false sense of self, you let go of duality, the relationship between subject and object. So you not only lose the 'i', but everything it relates to, and therefore the meaning and purpose of having a life. What, then, would be the point in doing anything? I'm still testing this theory out. What do you think?

When I had my experiences beyond the ego (which both lasted a few hours a piece), I didn't need any meaning. I just did things because a deep sense of knowing was guiding me. And I could do things for the pure enjoyment of just existing. There was no need to process the meaning of things through the ego to derive motivation. Motivation came from a deeper place. 

So, if my experiences are any indicator of what enlightenment is like, there won't be any "point" in doing anything. You will transcend the need for "points", meaning, value, worth, significance, and utilitarian context... and truly context of any kind. These empty words were just the measuring sticks of the ego, which are designed to define the world only through what the mind can understand, quantify, measure, and contextualize in some greater more meaningful system. 

But in that state, there exist NO greater more meaningful system to contextualize value/worth/significance/meaning/etc. It simply is what there is. 

So, for those who aren't beyond ego, they freak out because all they know is their measuring tools and how to determine the value of things through contextualization and relativity within their world. But in that state, all contexts drop away as does all ability to buy into falsehoods like having a "point". And they lose the ability to buy into falsehoods like the flip side of belief in a "point", which would be a belief in "pointlessness". But neither "point" nor "pointlessness" actually exist. Neither "worth" nor "worthlessness". These are just the measuring tools of the human mind that cannot fathom of the depth of validity and being-ness that is their own existence. 

[Guest]

@Emerald Thank you for another mature and thought-provoking response. I'll have to mull that one over...

[pluto]

14 hours ago, Stretch said:

@pluto Well, yeah, because nothing and infinity are the same thing. Doesn't change the fact that you traded everything you know and care about to get it, or that what you have in return is empty and meaningless.

I don't think you understand Enlightenment at its core level my friend but that is all well because i know you eventually will. All i can say to you is just enjoy your life and follow your highest joy, that will lead you to where you need to be and what you need to know when you need to know it.

 

[Leo Gura]

@Stretch It's like you're the fox guarding the hen house musing about why it would be a bad idea if you stopped guarding the hens.

Lol

You are an illegitimate tyrant who is completely full of shit. Nothing your mind says can be trusted.

[Emerald]

7 hours ago, Stretch said:

@Emerald Thank you for another mature and thought-provoking response. I'll have to mull that one over...

Thank you.  

[luckieluuke]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

@StretchYou are an illegitimate tyrant who is completely full of shit. Nothing your mind says can be trusted.

 

Wow that´s harsh man! is that including the parts of his mind that got him on the path of enlightenment? You have to realize that what @Stretch is saying in this topic is only one perspective he has and that he wants help to understand.

There is a part of me that understands your question @Stretch Like you said and what Buddha did when he became enlightened, endless determination or what it´s called. He sat down under his tree and meditated until his body died or he was released from all the suffering of life. 

Personally I don´t feel life is full of suffering. Life is pretty good, I like it. And I´ve got a feeling that it might be a big barrier for me to break through in order to achieve enlightenment. My ego is not ready to die yet even if I want it to. The way I handle it is that I´m actually not persuing enlightenement. I´ve had a few experiences and it´s a path worth persuing and I shall see how it all enfolds. I keep my job, girl, family, hobbies and friends while exploring non duality. I see it more as a hobbie (now a 10 years hobby)
Like other people have said on this topic, enlightenemnt is impossible to understand untill you are there, and there is no need to understand how it is supposed to fit into your life as it is now. Or what it will do to you. Just keep exploring your innerself as long as you please. And take some time off if you want to, you can always come back to it. You have your whole life so there is no stress

Honestly Im not sure meditation works very well if you have a strong purpose to meditation, like getting enlightenment experiences. For me it´s better when my mind is empty even of that and I do it just because that´s what I do. It might be goood, bad, joyful, horrifying etc. It´s life. I guess that´s why I do it. To experience life rather than to become enlightened.

Edited July 17, 2018 by luckieluuke

[Guest]

So @Emerald you're saying there's no need for meaning beyond ego because your existence is already enough without it.

@Leo Gura you're saying I'm tricking myself into suffering.

Still, enlightenment isn't going to bring me anything worthwhile, and will cost me everything. To put my dilemma into context, I've sacrificed relationships, career aspirations, all kinds of sensual pleasure (sex, food, partying), hobbies, the list goes on. I might as well end up spending my life staring at a wall. And for what? So I can release the need for my life to have meaning? So I don't have to deal with the downs of life? Sounds like a wholesale rejection of life to me. I got into self-actualisation because I wanted to live my life to the full, to make the most of it. This is basically the opposite, isn't it?

[Victor Mgazi]

@Stretch I'm not going to tell you that spiritual enlightenment is a good thing as that would be a mere opinion so really there is no reason for you to pursue this so called enlightenment. 

But what I will tell is that your current reality is like a dream and everything you know or believe in is of this dream. You have a choice of awakening or staying asleep (unaware) .

You are an intelligent organism so you can learn about things that won't have any significant effect in your survival but remember that even your suffering and pleasure is of this dream so yeah it's up to you really. 

[Guest]

@Outer Once again, this argument took it as a given from the start that believing in a seperate self is a delusion and truth can be found in stillness. Doesn't answer the question. 'No thoughts is the goal' only applies if you're already assuming enlightenment is a desirable thing. Frankly, some of you here sound brainwashed.

@Victor Mgazi So we're back to the 'truth for truth's sake' line. All you get from enlightenment is to end the dream of life. So really it doesn't make any sense if you're not sick of living. It's  the 'life sucks, just kill yourself' argument. If enlightenment wasn't dressed up with fantastical, misleading appeals to the ego (mystical states you also have to ultimately renounce, the ridiculously nonsensical prospect of being some blissed out 'enlightened being', etc), I wonder if any mentally stable person would give it any more consideration than a suggestion of suicide?

Unless, (I'm addressing everyone now), knowing the truth just for the sake of it matters more to you than everything else in the universe combined, and you'll gladly do that trade. Think you fit that category? Ask yourself why you're still doing anything at all.

Edited July 17, 2018 by Stretch

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Stretch said:

Still, enlightenment isn't going to bring me anything worthwhile, and will cost me everything. To put my dilemma into context, I've sacrificed relationships, career aspirations, all kinds of sensual pleasure (sex, food, partying), hobbies, the list goes on. I might as well end up spending my life staring at a wall. And for what? So I can release the need for my life to have meaning? So I don't have to deal with the downs of life? Sounds like a wholesale rejection of life to me. I got into self-actualisation because I wanted to live my life to the full, to make the most of it. This is basically the opposite, isn't it?

Nothing your mind says can be trusted.

You're still not getting it.

You are spinning this nonsense and then swallowing it hook, line, and sinker.

"I", "I", "I", "I"....

Every time you write the word "I", it's a lie.

"But I need..." << LIE!

"But I just think..." << LIE!

"But I want..." << LIE!

"But I will have to sacrifice..." << LIE!

"I might as well shoot myself..." << LIE!

"Meaninglessness is making me feel bad..." << LIE!

"Now I'm confused..." << LIE!

You are an imaginary character.

[Guest]

@Leo Gura Maybe I get it better than you think. If you start from a position of 'truth is the only thing that matters', sure, the mind can't be trusted to fulfil that end and everything it says is nonsense. I'm not disagreeing with you. What I'm challenging is 'truth is the only thing that matters'. If arriving at truth requires the annihilation of absolutely everything, I think it's reasonable that we question why we want it. Ok, we don't suffer anymore. I wouldn't suffer anymore if I shot myself in the head, either.

[Prabhaker]

4 minutes ago, Stretch said:

If arriving at truth requires the annihilation of absolutely everything

When words lose meaning you can use either the negative or the positive, because all words are either negative or positive; you just have to choose one. You can say for a liberated soul that he has become the whole. This is a positive way of saying it. Or you can say he is no more -- he has become nothingness. This is a negative way of saying it.

For example, if a small drop of water meets the ocean, you can say that the drop has become nothingness, the drop has lost its individuality, the drop is no more. This is a Buddhist way of saying things. It is good, it is right as far as it goes, because no word goes very far. So as far as it goes, it is good. The drop is no more" that is what is meant by NIRVANA. The drop has become non-being, it is not. Or you can use Upanishadic terms. The Upanishads will say that the drop has become the ocean. They are also right, because when the boundaries are broken, the drop has become the ocean.

So these are simply attitudes.

[Prabhaker]

On 7/16/2018 at 3:08 AM, Stretch said:

Pros

• You know the truth
• You suffer no more
• You’re free (from the game of life)

Don't bother about the goal. The real thing is not reaching, the real thing is the journey. When the whole journey has been beautiful, why not the goal?

[Guest]

@Prabhaker Yeah, it's either nothing or infinity depending on which word you choose. I'm familiar with the theory. Either way, it's not something you'd choose if you wanted to enjoy the 'journey of life' as you put it. You've perfectly illustrated my point that most seekers don't really want enlightenment. If you did, you'd let go of the journey, you certainly won't get enlightened til you do.