Stage Green and Stupidity.

[fireworld]

The idea behind spiral dynamics is that you go through the stages and incorporate the previous stages into the higher ones to some extent. Given this shouldn't stage greens have a decent amount of understanding of how science and logic works?

I understand that there are limits to science and that it can be done in an unhealthy way, but from my perspective every person that i have met that is in stage green is extremely unrealistic and disconnected from "how things work."

Take the human body as an example of a system, we know that this system called a human body operates in certain ways that keeps it healthy and strong. Proper food, sleep, meditation and so on. But the stage greens seem to be extremely against any "set" rules on how reality works.

They will take something like obesity and call it healthy even though we know it isn't healthy at all and is most likely going to be the thing that kills you. The same is true about business, or relationships or anything that we have a deep understanding of and can predict the outcome of, in other words the "causes" of the outcome are known.

Isn't this the greatest limiting factor to stage green? Is that they are completely ignoring how reality actually works and thats the reason they end up in so much trouble and pain? 

Also on a moral level, they tend to force high taxation and collectivism that can be extremely damaging and even deadly for people. Take Sweden where I live, don't pay your taxes and get 8-10 years in jail (punished for going against the collective) , rape a woman and get 2 years(individualism isn't valued). I have watched the episode on morality but from my view here i don't understand how this can be seen as a progressive intelligent way of "evolving" upwards.

Given that this has been my personal experience, I have always wondered how a stage green person like a hippie who is unemplyed can be more evolved than a stage blue doctor who helps people for free because he believes that God wants him to help his fellow people? 

I might not fully understand spiral dynamics yet, but this is just something that I can't sort out in my head.

 

[DocHoliday]

@fireworld (Un)fortunately you're right when you say that you don't understand S.D. correctly up until this point. Your evaluation of stage green sounds relatively narrow-minded to me because you seem to exclusively focus on the negative aspects of "green" mentality. Yes, what you've described for instance wih the obesity-example can be regarded as a form of green-like thinking but there's still a differentation to be made between the content of what's being said and it's conceptual frame from which it is derived from:) Typical green characteristics and values are indeed more caringly and communally motivated so that everyone is rahter included and accepted than rejected and judged, but nonetheless though, people who value such characteristics can still be deluded, misguided, self-deceived or ignorant of certain facts anyways. S.D. has a lot more to do with values and guidelines that one cherishes and upholds rather than who or what the person really is, i.e. intelligent, smart, funny, blunt, shortsighted, compulsive, impulsive or anything else for that matter. 

Edited July 11, 2018 by DocHoliday
This reply is brought to you by: Spiral Dynamics Stage Yellow-Thinking

[Matt8800]

@fireworld That is how an orange would understand green. That is exactly how I would have thought when I was in orange.

[Till]

For example there are also a lot of well educated hippies and/or which earn a good amount of money.

Like Leo explained very well in several of those videos a huge barrier is always when you demonize the stage above you and focus on the unhealthy manifestations of it.

I don't know sweden to well but for sure there are also cases of rapists which receive a serious punishment and cases of tax evasions with a mild punishment. Of course those did not end up on a news feed. On the other hand in the US for example there are dozens of examples where someone just get ill for a period of time and lost his job quickly, got homeless and even died because he could not afford a simple treatment. 

I personally spend a lot of time around a hippieh type of community and could tell there are some  vegan crusader types around which are pretty unhealthy. But those are exceptions. Many of those were pretty healthy and quiet tolerant on that subject.

[Leo Gura]

@fireworld Let me rewrite what you wrote from stage Blue's POV thinking about your stage (Orange).

Orange Stupidity:

The idea behind Spiral Dynamics is that you go through the stages and incorporate the previous stages into the higher ones to some extent. Given this shouldn't stage Orange have a decent amount of understanding of how religion and morality works?

I understand that there are limits to religion and that it can be done in an unhealthy way, but from my perspective every person that i have met that is in stage Orange is extremely selfish and disconnected from "moral living".

Take the human body as an example of a system, we know that this system called a human body operates in certain ways that keeps it healthy and strong. Proper food, sleep, prayer, fasting, chastity, and so on. But the stage Oranges seem to be extremely against any "set" rules for keeping your materialistic cravings in check.

They will take something like casual sex or greasy fast food or alcohol and call it healthy even though we know it isn't healthy at all and is most likely going to be the thing that kills you. The same is true about business, or relationships or anything that we have a deep understanding of. Our religious leaders have long ago pointed out the evils of having a materialistic worldview. Materialism leads to a rejection of God, a mindless belief in technological progress and science, and is responsible for greed, corporate exploitation, objectification of women, sex addiction, drug addiction, food addiction, pornography, crude humor, violent video games, nuclear weapons, depression, suicide, loss of direction, broken marriages, single mothers, STDs, abortions, and much more.

Isn't Orange corrupting the very fabric of decent society, turning it into the devil's playground? How can Orange be so stupid as to expect happiness from money, fine clothing, technological gadgetry, TV, video games, Facebook, sex before marriage, pornography, drugs, and rock n roll? Isn't Orange the embodiment of depravity and godlessness?

Isn't this the greatest limiting factor to stage Orange? Is that they are completely ignoring how spiritual reality actually works and that's the reason they end up in so much trouble and pain? 

[Capital]

13 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@fireworld Let me rewrite what you wrote from stage Blue's POV thinking about your stage (Orange).

Orange Stupidity:

The idea behind Spiral Dynamics is that you go through the stages and incorporate the previous stages into the higher ones to some extent. Given this shouldn't stage Orange have a decent amount of understanding of how religion and morality works?

I understand that there are limits to religion and that it can be done in an unhealthy way, but from my perspective every person that i have met that is in stage Orange is extremely selfish and disconnected from "moral living".

Take the human body as an example of a system, we know that this system called a human body operates in certain ways that keeps it healthy and strong. Proper food, sleep, prayer, fasting, chastity, and so on. But the stage Oranges seem to be extremely against any "set" rules for keeping your materialistic cravings in check.

They will take something like casual sex or greasy fast food or alcohol and call it healthy even though we know it isn't healthy at all and is most likely going to be the thing that kills you. The same is true about business, or relationships or anything that we have a deep understanding of. Our religious leaders have long ago pointed out the evils of having a materialistic worldview. Materialism leads to a rejection of God, a mindless belief in technological progress and science, and is responsible for greed, corporate exploitation, objectification of women, sex addiction, drug addiction, food addiction, pornography, crude humor, violent video games, nuclear weapons, depression, suicide, loss of direction, broken marriages, single mothers, STDs, abortions, and much more.

Isn't Orange corrupting the very fabric of society, turning it into the devil's playground?

Isn't this the greatest limiting factor to stage Orange? Is that they are completely ignoring how spiritual reality actually works and that's the reason they end up in so much trouble and pain? 

Haha ! That's awesome .. 

[CreamCat]

5 hours ago, fireworld said:

from my perspective every person that i have met that is in stage green is extremely unrealistic and disconnected from "how things work."

@fireworld I think that's because many Green people skipped Orange. They didn't properly integrate Orange. People on the healthy side of Green are reasonable and compassionate. One example of healthy Green is universal basic income movement. Leaders of universal basic income movement embrace Orange and Yellow, but they are mainly Green. Some of them are transitioning into Yellow and show signs of extensive systemic thinking and selflessness. I'm not saying universal basic income(UBI) is the right answer to every problem. We have yet to see whether UBI solves problems. Although it "seems" UBI will solve many problems we face today, I'm not dogmatic about it.

Green people who didn't integrate Orange properly cannot transition into Yellow because Yellow seems colder and more criminal to Green than Orange.

Also, many seemingly toxic Green people are actually Red or Purple. Unhealthy Green people who didn't integrate Orange properly tend to accommodate Red and Purple people in their Green movements. The end result seems to be psychopath(Red) infection driving out Green. Psychopath infection is a serious issue in every level of tier 1 of spiral dynamics. Orange tends to cope with Red better than Green does. Without tints of Orange, Green can be very vulnerable to Red.

Once a Green movement is hijacked by Red people who lead Purple people, the movement assumes cult-like characteristics. Purple is cultish and tribal. Purple is also known for magical thinking. That's why Purple can seem unrealistic and disconnected from how things work.

Edited July 11, 2018 by CreamCat

[fireworld]

@Leo Gura  Very intersting to read i must say haha.

The difference though, is that blue is not based on science. And science according to my understanding our best attempt at understanding the world.

Green seems to also steer away from science, if you tell people that you can pray away your disease, or that you can just love yourself and eventually your disease will vanish. Most of these things won't work, where as if you actually go to a doctor, get diagonsed you can fix your problem and move on with your life. 

This is my thinking of them, I am not saying that rationality and science present ultimate reality but it doesn't make sense that someone who ignores science, reason and logic which are the best thinking tools we have so far and just goes for pure emotional appeals is somehow more evolved than the other stages.

Edited July 11, 2018 by fireworld

[fireworld]

@CreamCat  This is always what i suspected, that they simply skip orange and go full green.

[fireworld]

@Till I don't demonize anyone, I couldn't care less what the people at the different stages are doing personally. If I can help i'm available, but as I said it doesn't make a lot of sense that the rejection of science and reason and the embracing of emotional decisionmaking is a step up in the ladder. 

The reason I say this is because you can use science and reason to achieve things like personal love and peace, a great economy where everyone can reap the rewards, you can implement environmental legislation to help all creatures of earth.

But if you are a stage green politician as an example, you will implement rules and laws that may destroy the well being of your citizens but you can do it because the idea sounds great. How is this more evolved than taking in all the data, and making an informed decision that benefits all?

[fireworld]

@DocHoliday  The problem is, if you are stage green and you have the ideals of community and love and sharing and caring, you won't get there using irrational non-critical thinking which seems to me to be a consistent theme in stage green.

If you are an effective stage green person, shouldn't you say "Ok, we want to start caring about the environment more and create more inculisveness in our society. So how do we do that? Gather all the available evidence, gather all the experts in mutliple fields, lets sit down and find out how we can do this in the best possible way".

Instead, most of the green people that I have had a conversation will have very direct, non systematic thinking in every single thing they approach. Which in my experience leads most of the stage green people down a path where they can't hold a job, their relationships end in disaster, and so on.

[CreamCat]

@fireworld Spiral Dynamics tier 1 is not about evolution. Every stage of tier 1 merely tracks how an individual's psyche changes over time. If you have successfully integrated all stages below your current stage, it may feel like evolution. For example, an Orange person can see how its selfishness hurts people and become Green.

In some situations, Red is better suited than Green. For example, let's assume that a robber(Red) intruded your house. You can't cope well with robbers with Green mindset. You need to awaken your inner Red and grab a shotgun in this case.

The ability to flexibly apply various stages of Spiral Dynamics to situations is the way forward.

Green can be good if it is applied flexibly. Dogma and inflexibility can ruin any stage of Spiral Dynamics.

We need dynamic balance. You need to dynamically balance yourself between stages of Spiral Dynamics according to situations.

If you have successfully integrated all stages of tier 1, you can do this.

Edited July 11, 2018 by CreamCat

[Soulbass]

This conversion from blue to orange is great.

Doing this for all stages is a great exercise (idea for a worksheet?).

Edited July 11, 2018 by Soulbass

[Leo Gura]

44 minutes ago, fireworld said:

The difference though, is that blue is not based on science. And science according to my understanding our best attempt at understanding the world.

Well... since it accords with you it must be true.

That's called scientism. You've just replaced blind belief in Allah with blind belief in science.

It's the same shell game, just using different shells.

[fireworld]

@Leo Gura Nope, don't agree on that Leo.

I'm a model agnostic and understand that science is a lens, in 20 years my understanding of the world will be different I don't get attached to what my understanding is now. However, science is the best model of understanding how to reach your outcomes and it's highly pragmatic.

What other model is better at predicting the outcomes and being as pragmatic as science is?

With the use of science you can build an engine, what other model could replace science that could build an engine?

Btw, thank you for all your work Leo. I have grown tremendously from your videos and still have more to grow as you can see haha!

 

[Leo Gura]

@fireworld You are not going to understand the limits of science whilst you are stuck inside the paradigm of scientism.

Me trying to argue against science with you would be like me trying to argue against Islam with a fundamentalist Muslim. It's pointless because you accept science as a dogma without being aware that you are doing so.

If you care about the Truth, you will make a serious inquiry into the limits of science on your own.

You're right about one thing: science is pragmatic. But pragmatism is the ego-mind's survival agenda, which has nothing to do with Truth or deep understanding. In an illusory world, illusion, lying, deception, imagination, and manipulation is highly effective for the purposes of maintaining and advancing oneself as an illusion.

[Clayman]

3 hours ago, fireworld said:

@CreamCat  This is always what i suspected, that they simply skip orange and go full green.

Nop, No skipping, but you can delude yourself being an octave higher. Easy to do that. Usually blue has some antenna for green, being on the collectivist axis.

[CreamCat]

41 minutes ago, Clayman said:

Nop, No skipping, but you can delude yourself being an octave higher. Easy to do that. Usually blue has some antenna for green, being on the collectivist axis.

@Clayman Leo said lots of Green people did not properly integrate Orange. They didn't skip Orange. They just didn't integrate Orange properly. It's also possible that Blue or Purple people are disguising themselves as Green.

I feel that I probably didn't integrate Blue properly in the past. I don't remember being Blue. Perhaps, I was Blue without knowing that I was Blue.

Edited July 12, 2018 by CreamCat

[DocHoliday]

@fireworld What exactly do you mean with "geting there"?

7 hours ago, fireworld said:

@DocHoliday  The problem is, if you are stage green and you have the ideals of community and love and sharing and caring, you won't get there using irrational non-critical thinking which seems to me to be a consistent theme in stage green.

Apart from that, I have to agree that if the green-minded people you've met so far are acting more impulsively and think in impractical or even illogical ways, that's due to not having embodied healthy orange yet. As I already kinda mentioned it in my first reply, you have to start seeing and applying S.D. in a more broad and nuanced way. To every stage in Tier1, and even yellow to some degree, there is always an unhealthy side and a healthy side that one might have a tendency to, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the stage itself is "bad", regressive or suboptimal in any way.

The degree to which you judge, criticise or demonise any other stage that is not your own stage is the degree to which you are paradigm-locked and egoically identified with that particular stage. You have an invested interest in that particular stage being dominant and superior (because you are obviously convinced that it's the right kind of stage and mentality) - which might work for a while but never over the long run since things are constantly changing and adapting. Even your level of success in life that is corrlated to true fulfillment is in a sense dependent on how well and fluently you're able to rise up in the levels of the spiral and adapt yourself to lower levels that you've been in. Success/fulfilment that is achieved only within one single stage of the spiral never lasts long (for oneself).

Edited July 12, 2018 by DocHoliday

[CreamCat]

9 minutes ago, DocHoliday said:

@fireworld What exactly do you mean with "geting there"?

It means actually implementing the ideals of community and love and sharing and caring.