Jordan Peterson on Incels and Female Hypergamy

[Emerald]

6 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

[SFRL]

17 minutes ago, kingroboto said:

please share with us your secrets. Where do I go to hunt for these elusive hot cougars?

Well this one just jumped me out of nowhere. There wasn't much I could do. She was all over me. 

But I have spotted them prowling around the deep marshes of Tinder and Match.com as well. I am sure you can hunt some there. 

[Leo Gura]

Quote

"It's hard to reason with a man who thinks with his dick."

-- Sadhguru

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, Etherial Cat said:

You've earned yourself an entry in my commonplace book. And a new subscriber to your channel ! 

 Thank you! I hope you enjoy my videos.

[Emerald]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

-- Sadhguru

Did Sadhguru really say that? 

[Systemic]

I just want to point out that JP stance on this seems to be misunderstood by some in this thread.

JP talks in large scale macro levels often and then people bring those same ideas down to the micro level misconstruing his beliefs.

Individual Micro-level = JP believes and advocates that when a man is getting rejected by all women, the fault is not in the women but in the man. And that the man needs to take on the responsibility, get his life together and become a better man which will therefore make him much more attractive to women and help him with his problem.

Society Wide Macro-level = He says that men who fail to have any mating opportunities get angry and violent and that societies that are structured in a way where there are less of those men around makes for a less violent society. 

Edited July 10, 2018 by Systemic

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Did Sadhguru really say that? 

"At least 50% of internet quotes are fake."

-- Eckhart Tolle

[CreamCat]

@MM1988 I think you are too neurotic about getting sex. You need balance. Be cooler about sex. If you are neurotic and needy around women, women will avoid you.

[Emerald]

21 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

"At least 50% of internet quotes are fake."

-- Eckhart Tolle

That's my favorite quote from Eckhart Tolle, hands down. But I still refuse to believe that Sadhguru said the word "dick." He would have been way more creative about it and called it a "magic wand" instead. That's how I knew it was a fake quote. 

[ULFBERHT]

You guys who are boo-hooing about some arcane theories regarding female sexual strategy as an excuse for why you can't get a date need to quit your pity party already. For fuck's sake. I'm an ordinary male who's in his mid-twenties, hasn't yet completed his degree, is working a blue collar job, has average physical features, and is definitely not the stereotypical "alpha male" type guy, but somehow has never had a problem getting a girlfriend. Work on yourself, set some goals and achieve them, get some skills, and the women will come.

Edit: I realized the pun only after I wrote this, but I stand by it.

Edited July 11, 2018 by ULFBERHT
Pun

[CreamCat]

@Emerald I thnk you fell into the trap of buying into societal pressure. My parents have put enormous pressure on me with regard to marriage. They often emphasize how I need to man up by making more money and hooking up a woman. Tell a poor person to make more money, and see how it turns out. It's like telling a cancer patient to get better instead of paying for the patient's surgeries.

Men are not having it better. The evolutionary pressure is enormous on both sides. If you buy into the narrative that women's worth is primarily determined by physical attractiveness and validation from the other sex, you are disempowering yourself. Take responsibility for your self worth. I chose not to buy into the narrative that men's worth is determined by muscles, height, masculine face, and money. Women don't have less power just because society wants to make women believe their worth is determined by physical attractiveness.

We need some balance here. Be cool about dating and marriage. But, I should probably worry about about dating and marriage because I'm too cool.

Edited July 11, 2018 by CreamCat

[Emerald]

7 minutes ago, CreamCat said:

@Emerald I thnk you fell into the trap of buying into societal pressure. My parents have put enormous pressure on me with regard to marriage. They often emphasize how I need to man up by making more money and hooking up a woman. Tell a poor person to make more money, and see how it turns out. It's like telling a cancer patient to get better instead of paying for the patient's surgeries.

Men are not having it better. The evolutionary pressure is enormous on both sides. If you buy into the narrative that women's worth are primarily determined by physical attractiveness, you are disempowering yourself. Take responsibility for your self worth. I chose not to buy into the narrative that men's worth are determined by muscles, height, masculine face, and money. Women don't have less power just because society wants to make women believe their worth is determined by physical attractiveness. Don't buy into that narrative.

It's good to be internally grounded and feel okay in the absence of validation from the other sex.

We need some balance here. Be cool about dating and marriage. But, I should probably worry about about dating and marriage because I'm too cool.

Evolutionary pressure is going to be evolutionary pressure no matter what.

You're not really telling me anything new. I have worked hard to buck the social narratives for my entire life. And I completely ignored them all through my teenage years, just writing them off as BS. But they're so deeply ground into me, that it's difficult to drop even when I unknowingly pretended to all those years. And when I pretended they were dropped, I just had a lot of needs that I wasn't able to admit to myself.

But that's how these narratives are designed on purpose, to cross over the sexual instinct. The function of the mechanism is designed to keep women in a non-centered state, where a woman will have difficulty being truly authentic. It's difficult to drop something that has soaked into you so deeply, that you would literally have to rewire or drop the entire ego to move past it. And I work on it every day, chipping away at the attachment to social narratives little by little. 

But the fact of the matter is that I have needs to meet, that I don't know how to meet without the social narrative. I've never seen any other ways that resonate with me more. So, as long as I feel like I still need that for all the reasons that I do, it will be very difficult to let go of. It's not simply a matter of letting go of just the one thing. I also don't want to repress anything by pretending to drop something that is so tenacious.

[CreamCat]

It's probably easier for me to surrender because I haven't had sex for my entire life. I made peace with not having a girl friend and not having sex at some point. I still have monkey sex drive. If you withdraw from something for long periods of time, you will eventually surrender.

I will probably have sex when there is good reason to have sex.

Edited July 11, 2018 by CreamCat

[aurum]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

This is so toxic and neurotic I don't even know where to begin deconstructing it.

That's how the world looks like when you're at Tyler's level of consciousness.

At higher levels of consciousness, it does not look like that.

I'll challenge you on this since I doubt anyone else will. I think your critique of Tyler is unnecessarily harsh.

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The fundamental problem with PUAs is, they want to bang the hottest 0.001% of girls, a new one very week

That's a very cartoon version of PUA and you should know that after being in the community.

Most "PUAs" are not trying to bang the hottest .001% of girls, they're way too intimidated by them. I WISH more guys I knew actually wanted to go for those girls, I'd have much better wingmen.

Most guys I see get into PUAs are scared nerds who just want a girlfriend that is moderately attractive. That's all they really feel they deserve.

There are exceptions of course, and their preferences will evolve as they evolve.

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

and when that girl rejects him or refuses to sleep with him within 4 hours of meeting him, he gets pissy and blames her for it. Because of course PUA can't be wrong by definition.

Sure, if a guy is new to PUA and he sucks at it.

That's not because a "PUA can't be wrong". It's a coping mechanism to deal with rejection.

Most people have core beliefs about their unworthiness, and rejections are like salt in the wound. So of course people who aren't ready to heal that will project.

That doesn't mean it's wrong. That's the healing process.

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Are young women in their early 20's attracted to low-quality men? Of course! In the same way that people are attracted to low quality food. The solution isn't to start another McDonalds. The supermodel girls in their 20's are immature and unconscious and have no idea how to select proper mates. PUA then blames and exploits them for it.

Never in my life have I seen advocate Tyler advocate to become another "McDonalds". He always places a strong emphasis on personal growth, spriritual growth, life purpose, and coming into your own as a man.

The distinction here is that he doesn't believe you should do that IN ORDER TO GET GIRLS. There is some overlap between self-actualization and meeting women, but it's not necessary.

Do it because it fulfills you and leads to your best life.

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, you will definitely have more sex by manipulating girls. Just like you will definitely earn more money by manipulating and cheating customers. But that's not what you really want in the end.

You'd have to define what you mean by manipulation and what manipulation is not, but generally speaking I'd say that's false. Not in the long term at least.

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You don't really want a new supermodel girl every week. What you want is 1 girl who are able to love and build a deep relationship with. She doesn't even have to be that hot. That's your insatiable ego at work.

This is not necessarily true at all.

I do know friends who have fallen into the "must have a new girl all the time" trap. And it sucks to see because you know they're not happy.

But, you're dismissing a whole lot of valid lifestyles. I know people who are very happy being polyamorous, open and single.

We get a lot of conditioning telling us that monogamy is the only answer. But is that actually true for everyone?

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The counter-intuitive move for Tyler here would be to say, "I will surrender my desire for sex with a new super-model girl every week." The problem isn't that he can't get girls. The problem is that he is trying to reach God/Infinity through sex/girls/pickup, and this will NEVER work. Materialism never works. But rather than admitting that, the PUA will blame the women.

Again, you're making a lot of assumptions here. Tyler speaks very openly about the spiritual work he does that doesn't involve pickup.

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You have to understand that PUAs are fundamentally incapable of being in relationships because they are too narcissistic and manipulative to have an honest, intimate, loving relationship. They are too immature to be vulnerable and to commit to one woman. Many PUAs are really just sex and ego addicts without realizing it. PUA becomes just another materialist escape, no different than TV, drugs, or porn. It's a 1st and 2nd chakra activity -- driven by very low consciousness needs.

Maybe some, you're making a very broad generalization.

For me I'd actually say it's the other way around. I wasn't capable of being in a loving relationship UNTIL I did pickup.

It was / is a healing process. It helped me let go of a lot of negative beliefs about women and relationships, and only then was I able to actually be in one. It also gave me the skill set and experience to know how to attract the kind of girl I wanted.

I'll be very blunt. I think you're a highly evolved guy, but I would consider that you may have some shadow work to be done when it comes to receiving. Consider that PUAs are a trigger for you.

Besides that, you definitely made some good points. Thanks for forcing me to consider my beliefs on the subject.

[CreamCat]

@aurum You make me interested in PUA although I'm becoming okay with just being without anything fancy in my life.

In the past, I was kind of reluctant to try it because the results I can realistically get with short stature, average face, and very little money would not be great.

It turns out that not having been in relationships with women was good for my dwindling finance.

Edited July 11, 2018 by CreamCat

[Emerald]

3 hours ago, CreamCat said:

It's probably easier for me to surrender because I haven't had sex for my entire life. I made peace with not having a girl friend and not having sex at some point. I still have monkey sex drive. If you withdraw from something for long periods of time, you will eventually surrender.

I will probably have sex when there is good reason to have sex.

Sex is just a small part of it. It has so much more to do with the way that I see myself in relation to my sexuality. I feel like I can't both have myself and my sexual desires too. So, it's more about authenticity, wholeness, and power than it is about sex. 

I'm a woman, so I know that if I really wanted to and made myself available, I could have sex with ten new guys a day. And I'm sure that even when I'm 70, if I put myself out there, I could have sex with a few men a week. There will always be men out there looking for sex wherever they can get it. Now, I don't want to do that, because it would suck. But I could. So, it's not a fear that sex will go away as I age. 

It has to do with how I've been subtly conditioned since early childhood to see myself as a sexual object instead of a sexual subject, coming more and more to a head as I've become older and wiser. It's seeing yourself as a valuable sexual object when you're younger, and then feeling like your value as an object diminishes every year. And with that perceived value loss, feeling less and less valid as a person and less and less deserving of pleasure. So, it's being a diamond when you're young, and being a piece of garbage once you're older.

But my question is, when do I finally transcend this illusion of being an object and feel fully human and valid? And if I do transcend that illusion, will I still feel like I'm allowed to have sexual desires? 

So, you must understand that it's an existential problem, a lot like dealing with a smaller version of death. And it's very difficult to put down because the conditioning is so subtle and pervasive that there's no way to avoid it. It's especially difficult because the sexual narratives that we learn are all based around women as objects too. So, it's easy for young women to learn that their role in sex is to simply be the pleasing object. So, if we relate this narrative to sexual pleasure, it's extra difficult to buck that narrative because of its association with pleasure. 

So, it's very complicated. And I don't necessarily think withdrawal will help. I have been with my husband for over eight years and we have children together. And I know he loves me as a person. So, it's not like I have dogs in the race of the dating game or anything. So, I'm already pretty far withdrawn. It's just that, despite the inner work I've done, I can't seem to transcend this issue. It's very tenacious. 

[CreamCat]

@Emerald I don't think women are supposed to think of themselves as sex objects. That sounds like masturbation. Would it help to think of men as sex objects instead?

Note that men view themselves as success objects because access to sex for men boils down to wealth and resourcefulness. Women are drawn to men who already have resources or are resourceful.

It seems that you're worried about your diminishing sexual market value. Sexual market value matters only in social contexts. It seems to me that it boils down to who's the coolest girl in your town. If you surrendered your social life, you would be more internally grounded. Note that surrendering your social life doesn't mean abandoning your family and living in monastery.

Fashion and physical attractiveness are one facet of social competition among women. Another facet is how desirable your husband is to other women. Material success is how men participate in social competition.

I know it's difficult to let go of social competition because it is stimulating. It was easier for me to let go of social competition because I have lived in social isolation for many years.

It was difficult to let go of material success for me. Letting go of material success felt like death. But, surrender was aided by social isolation.

Edited July 11, 2018 by CreamCat

[Emerald]

13 minutes ago, CreamCat said:

@Emerald I don't think women are supposed to think of themselves as sex objects. That sounds like masturbation.

Would it help to think of men as sex objects instead?

I used to relate my self worth to the amount of money I have and my sexual market value and skills valuable in job markets. After having spent some years in man cave, the concept of sexual market value became irrelevant in my mind. I don't think about it. Perhaps, it could help to create your woman cave and spend time there for a few years if that's possible. All the vanity and hubris dissipate eventually in isolation.

I thought I was going to go crazy if I failed at becoming a master in my career. Now, I am cool about not becoming a master in my career. That doesn't mean I am not advancing in my career. I'm still pursuing relative degrees of career success. I was really really hugry for career success for some years until I met Leo's videos.

I suspect that if you became cool about the social aspect of your life, you would become less neurotic.

I really don't think you quite understand what I'm saying. I'm already in my woman-cave. If I do go out of the house, it's with my family or for work. And I have no dogs in the race relative to the dating game. I've been sufficiently withdrawn from life for over seven years, just working on my family, my work, and my YouTube channel. So, understand that my issue, at its bedrock level, isn't really about sexual market value. It's about deep conditionings that I've yet to be able to drop, despite years of inner work, because I have needs that conflict with dropping it. Basically, I feel like I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't, because I know I'd be repressing something to choose to go in either direction. 

That said, I've been slowly chipping away at it over the years, and it is a little bit better. I'm hoping that eventually, it all lets go of me and allows me to come back into alignment. But the social pattern is so big and pervasive, that it would be very hard to drop for anyone afflicted by it. 

But no, it's not even possible for me to derive pleasure by looking at men as sexual objects. Men are only attractive to me as fully formed human beings with autonomy and personalities. I can't just look at a man's body as an object and forget the personality attached to it. That said, there are parts of me that see myself as purely an object, and there are plenty of people and images out there echoing that sentiment. So, even when I intellectually know that thinking of myself as an object is incorrect. There is still a deep feeling there that I just can't seem to shake. So, I know that some deep parts of me truly believe that.

[CreamCat]

@Emerald 

Quote

I really don't think you quite understand what I'm saying.

...

It's about deep conditionings that I've yet to be able to drop, despite years of inner work, because I have needs that conflict with dropping it.

You are vague about your needs. That's why I don't understand it. If you don't want to talk about it, don't.

Quote

But no, it's not even possible for me to derive pleasure by looking at men as sexual objects. Men are only attractive to me as fully formed human beings with autonomy and personalities.

I read in a book that women are drawn to success and winners of competitions.

Wealth and power indicate success in the past. Resourcefulness predicts success in the future. For example, humor predicts social success, so women like men who are witty with humors. I was able to pass a job interview with my wits in the past.

Perhaps, that's why I was harsh on myself for not having been successful with my career. Career failure felt like death to me.

Quote

But my question is, when do I finally transcend this illusion of being an object and feel fully human and valid? And if I do transcend that illusion, will I still feel like I'm allowed to have sexual desires? 

Perhaps, your body is an object. It is a truth. My body is an object, too.

Humans are basically biological machines and physical objects genetically designed to be used for purposes. History proves that men were used as death objects in wars. Men take orders and die in wars, mines, etc, ... Women as sex objects. Men as success objects. Men can also be used as sex objects by some women who wish to do so. I saw some women who wanted to use male olympic athletes as their sex objects. They were fun creatures to watch.

But, you are not your body. You are not a human being although you are affected by your biology and your culture.

You have to adjust your expectations realistically. It's going to take a lot more emotional labor than you expected. Also, be open-minded about spirituality. Perhaps, spirituality itself is just as much an ideology as money ideology.

I kind of accepted the fact that I'm pretty much worthless to me and others. Accepting insignificance of your own existence can be a good starting point. When you accept your own worthlessness, you are free. Self acceptance is to accept your worthlessness.

Edited July 11, 2018 by CreamCat

[now is forever]

2 hours ago, CreamCat said:

I don't think women are supposed to think of themselves as sex objects. That sounds like masturbation. Would it help to think of men as sex objects instead?

Note that men view themselves as success objects because access to sex for men boils down to wealth and resourcefulness. Women are drawn to men who already have resources or are resourceful.

It seems that you're worried about your diminishing sexual market value. Sexual market value matters only in social contexts. It seems to me that it boils down to who's the coolest girl in your town. If you surrendered your social life, you would be more internally grounded. Note that surrendering your social life doesn't mean abandoning your life and living in monastery.

Fashion and physical attractiveness are one facet of social competition among women. Another facet is how desirable your husband is to other women. Material success is how men participate in social competition.

I know it's difficult to let go of social competition because it is stimulating. It was easier for me to let go of social competition because I have lived in social isolation for many years.

It was difficult to let go of material success for me. Letting go of material success felt like death. But, surrender was aided by social isolation.

very good questions - something to unwire there.

women are supposed to not think about themselves as sex objects - the supposed is the problem sometimes, in a western society we live in this bubble of autonomie, where we sometimes forget how women are treated outside, or even in other parts of society. woman trafficking is just one part of it, and in some areas on the world women can‘t go on the streets alone without fear. and with new tools like tinder even young girls participate in it, without even realizing it.

if we try to ignore that we are naive if we try to talk about it we are manlike emancipated.

this contradiction still plays a role in modern societies. 

because it happens every day, as long as women sexuality really is a capital.

even marriage was something like that and in some countries still is. it is money support and law protection, and ideology protection.

that‘s why law and money should be separated - also in sense of the family. we can even go further and separate spirituality and law and money.

in the end we need to protect the idea of love and family somehow - if it is a love of caring. and we have to protect the caring part especially. if it is a male or a female or both or a community. that would be the synthesis.

so to go back to the political discussion - of the first video, maybe it’s getting more understandable now.

while one is talking about liberal free sex, the other is talking about protection of those who have to be protected. 

 

 

if it would help to see men as an object - well sometimes we treat men as objects too. we only buy what we like and only wear what we like - of course we go for luxourious ones. means we go for the ones we like.

 

Edited July 11, 2018 by now is forever