Watching Spiral Dynamics blue and orange episode has made me very confused

[Hansu]

Something i dont understand about spiral dynamics is that am i supposed to drop all blue ideologies in order to ascend to orange?

I mean, i defend gays whenever someone starts talking shit of them, i know personally a man who is living inside a woman's body, i know multiple Estonian people, people of Russian descend who came from Estonia and Filippino people who are more intelligent and more understanding than many people of my own nationality and i believe strongly in the right of moving to another country if your intentions are good, i have strong interest in different cultures and have spent a lot of time with the said Estonian, people of Russian descend and Filippino people talking of their homes, how their system works and how their culture treats different kind of people (FYI: In Filippinos, they don't kill all the drug users. They force the users into detox centers until they are stable enough to continue living without drugs. However, they do attack and destroy mafia facilities and headquarters)

But what i don't understand that... Am i supposed to accept multiculturalism in the way the media depicts it? Am i supposed to accept all the people who come here "escaping war" and then start throwing the food we give them on the ground and start demanding cars and shit? I don't want my country to turn into Sweden, where there is literally places where they fight with grenades and circumcise little girls!

One thing i really don't understand is that in Spiral Dynamics its very blue thing to support mandatory army. Paid army would never be enough to protect my country against the red machine if they decided to do what they did in Ukraine. Our mandatory army is not to fight. We train every men for a year so we could inflict as much economic damage to the attacker, and after the attacker takes over we stay guerilla fighting, destroying their resource trucks and infrastructure in order to prevent the attacker using them in order to slow their journey deeper into Europe. When we go to war, we already know we lost. Why are we this stupid? Its because the stupidest of man in power understands that their best interest is NOT to lose their army and their economic wealth for bunch of rubble. Our mandatory army is better at keeping peace than all of the nuclear weapons in the world. Am i truly going to stay blue forever if i believe in this?

I'd love to rant more about the accepting of SJW and their demand of everyone having to fill  cunninglus forms but that's already stage orange which im clearly not.

PS: I wrote this message out of pure triggering of the Spiral Dynamics blue and orange video. I went through multiple stages of understanding, anger, sadness, thoughts of giving up actualization and more anger. Im not a troll, and i genuinely want to know why i should change the beliefs i stated before in order to grow myself, im currently very confused.

Edited July 2, 2018 by Hansu

[Leo Gura]

The problem here is that you've got a highly skewed, demonized notion of what multiculturalism is about.

Multiculturalism is about valuing diversity of human cultures, not holding your own as superior. It's about being curious about exploring other cultures and noticing how all cultural norms are relative, arbitrary, and socially constructed.

It would help if you actually traveled abroad or deeply studied other cultures and saw the rich diversity that exists all around the world. This would open your eyes to whole new way of seeing humans, societies, and life.

For example, you could travel to Costa Rica and see what life is like in a country which has abolished its army entirely. Costa Rica has zero army. And people there seem to be happy with it.

Don't make this political. Politics is ego. Work to let go of your judgments. If you're judging a thing, that means there's something about it you don't fully understand.

[Hansu]

Well, damn. I just realized that i always thought myself to be accepting of other cultures, but now that i think about it i have been internally criticizing them despite letting them be. Intellectually i understand that in Russia, giving and family ties are held in high value because of the need for social support-net, but inside i have felt disgust and criticized it as "not the right way" and "i would hate to live like that". And the same goes for Filippino and Estonian culture, i have listened them but still i have thought that my culture does it the best with its superior welfare system and equal rights to school, despite the fact that there could be many things more superior in their culture to mine. (EDIT: I just realized im still thinking in the sense of "good" and "bad" since i said that there could be more superior things in their culture and there is superior things in mine. This takes some time to wrap up)

So... I guess im not supposed to take the spiral dynamics in a literal sense, but to take the judgement triggering subjects in my current stage and study them, research and weed out the judgment and after there is no judgement, it doesen't matter what i believe because i have found the inner peace and not get triggered despite someone judging the subject. And that is when i can deal with it objectively without strong emotional reactions like i got watching the video?

Because what i truly know about feminism and SJW? Well, i know what twitter feminists ramble about, but i never found out about other aspects of modern feminism. Maybe all feminism is not twitter feminism?

Thank you Leo, you restored my faith to actualization and made it stronger

Edited July 2, 2018 by Hansu

[Leo Gura]

@Outer Whatever meaning it has for you is precisely the meaning you're projecting onto it.

[Elisabeth]

4 hours ago, Hansu said:

One thing i really don't understand is that in Spiral Dynamics its very blue thing to support mandatory army. Paid army would never be enough to protect my country against the red machine if they decided to do what they did in Ukraine. Our mandatory army is not to fight. We train every men for a year so we could inflict as much economic damage to the attacker, and after the attacker takes over we stay guerilla fighting, destroying their resource trucks and infrastructure in order to prevent the attacker using them in order to slow their journey deeper into Europe. When we go to war, we already know we lost. Why are we this stupid? Its because the stupidest of man in power understands that their best interest is NOT to lose their army and their economic wealth for bunch of rubble.

8

Do you live in a country in direct neighbourhood with Russia? I understand why you would be struggling with this topic. A perceived direct threat to your safety will always make actualization harder. Recall Maslows hierarchy. 

It's much easier to be a multiculturalist when war is NOT around the corner. Even really green people will go into hate if tanks are occupying their country. (I'm Czech. 1968 is a half-healed wound here. Still, there's less fear of Russia because of the few hundred kilometers between our borders and Ukraine.)

Your second post about judgement is excellent. Yes, go that direction. And you don't have to start with your very enemy.

[TomDashingPornstar]

I'm not European so I have a question about multi-culturalism in Europe:

 

Europeans, has anyone ever seen muslim girls dating outside their religion?  Also, if it's something you've never seen please mention that.

Edited July 2, 2018 by TomDashingPornstar

[ValiantSalvatore]

@TomDashingPornstar In case muslim girl means that she is part of the religion of islam( i know a tiny bit about the islam). Then rarely do I see it, yet many modern families which come from regions where the islam is present are more open and tolerant of different cultures and ethnicities, especially people who are younger. So, they embrace the western culture and materalism, especially materalism. Sometimes it is the other way around a western girl adopting the religion of her partner. So, you will see sometimes western girls wearing a headscarf or even a burka. I never saw a western girl with a burka in my region in germany, but one with a headscarf.

I worked together with a turkish girl in uni who wears a headscarf and she was quite modern despite her parents suggesting her marriage partner ( most likely I don't know 100%) she once said she would never choose a partner which she does not like and that her parents are completely okay with that she seems quite liberal and open-minded, a very kind person. But, as an outsider I never know what goes on inside the family, I knew some guys who are just like I bang german girls and marry a in this case turkish girl. And they would laugh and one really meant it during that time. Now he is going to have a child with a german girl, since he was more money oriented and did not really care that much about ethnicity. So, yes people do date outside their religion, yet followers of the religion tend to stay in their circles. Depends on how serious they take it.

Edited July 2, 2018 by ValiantSalvatore

[Elisabeth]

4 hours ago, Outer said:

Since crony capitalistic companies, banking system and government employees need money, they need people on welfare, and more purchaser of good and services. An increased amount of people who are unassimable first increase dependency on the regime, the second it boosts housing prices, which increases the housing loans for the banks, third the consumption of basic goods and services increase by welfare redistribution of new people. There's also an increased amount of voters for what I described to be the stronger party in these areas.

Sorry I don't want to advocate boundless immigration and building ghettos, but this reasoning seems flawed to me. If the government or bank need money, they can raise taxes/interest rates. No need to create a bunch of new problems. Nobody needs unassimilable people on welfare (in contrast to people who can work). Besides, the total amount of money which you give out on welfare stays in the economy if you invest it otherwise or simply don't collect it from the people in the first place.

There can be economic reasons for immigration e.g. if there is demand for low qualification work-force, sure. 

Human naivete - thinking that everyone's essentially the same and can be assimilated - seems like a more plausible reason for Europe failing to watch its boundaries to me. 

[TomDashingPornstar]

@ValiantSalvatore

@Hansu

Thanks for the answer

Edited July 4, 2018 by TomDashingPornstar

[Hansu]

On 2.7.2018 at 2:37 PM, Elisabeth said:

 

 

On 3.7.2018 at 10:41 AM, TomDashingPornstar said:

@ValiantSalvatore

@Hansu

 

Edit: i deleted the content on this post because my thoughts have been swinging like pendulum swing. The content of this particular post have changed so many times that reading it would make the reader more confused than me, and it troubles me that i feel the need to come back and correct myself every time i get more understanding on ego, spiral dynamics model and consciousness. I feel like im trying to comprehend high stage ideas with low stage consciousness, like a vegetarian would try when he/she would fight animal abuse with paint bucket and unexpecting victim.

Thank you!

Edited July 4, 2018 by Hansu

[Augustus]

On ٢‏/٧‏/٢٠١٨ at 10:27 AM, Hansu said:

Something i dont understand about spiral dynamics is that am i supposed to drop all blue ideologies in order to ascend to orange?

I mean, i defend gays whenever someone starts talking shit of them, i know personally a man who is living inside a woman's body, i know multiple Estonian people, people of Russian descend who came from Estonia and Filippino people who are more intelligent and more understanding than many people of my own nationality and i believe strongly in the right of moving to another country if your intentions are good, i have strong interest in different cultures and have spent a lot of time with the said Estonian, people of Russian descend and Filippino people talking of their homes, how their system works and how their culture treats different kind of people (FYI: In Filippinos, they don't kill all the drug users. They force the users into detox centers until they are stable enough to continue living without drugs. However, they do attack and destroy mafia facilities and headquarters)

But what i don't understand that... Am i supposed to accept multiculturalism in the way the media depicts it? Am i supposed to accept all the people who come here "escaping war" and then start throwing the food we give them on the ground and start demanding cars and shit? I don't want my country to turn into Sweden, where there is literally places where they fight with grenades and circumcise little girls!

One thing i really don't understand is that in Spiral Dynamics its very blue thing to support mandatory army. Paid army would never be enough to protect my country against the red machine if they decided to do what they did in Ukraine. Our mandatory army is not to fight. We train every men for a year so we could inflict as much economic damage to the attacker, and after the attacker takes over we stay guerilla fighting, destroying their resource trucks and infrastructure in order to prevent the attacker using them in order to slow their journey deeper into Europe. When we go to war, we already know we lost. Why are we this stupid? Its because the stupidest of man in power understands that their best interest is NOT to lose their army and their economic wealth for bunch of rubble. Our mandatory army is better at keeping peace than all of the nuclear weapons in the world. Am i truly going to stay blue forever if i believe in this?

I'd love to rant more about the accepting of SJW and their demand of everyone having to fill  cunninglus forms but that's already stage orange which im clearly not.

PS: I wrote this message out of pure triggering of the Spiral Dynamics blue and orange video. I went through multiple stages of understanding, anger, sadness, thoughts of giving up actualization and more anger. Im not a troll, and i genuinely want to know why i should change the beliefs i stated before in order to grow myself, im currently very confused.

I don't know what to say to you but you look like ascended orange and about to ascend green, it's true what you are saying that too much accepting of other cultures will have negative consequences , but of course there is always a middle ground between seeing your race or culture as superior and between allow everyone to access your country and do whatever they want. The same thing with military don't spent too much nor not enough.

 

I think your reasoning is fine to me , but of course all of us need to learn as much as we can and seeing the world from different perspective as we can.