Controversial problems with the evolution of green stage relationships? Confused

[billiesimon]

This is mainly a question I have for Leo and for the advanced people here, because I'm still puzzled and can't undestand this.

I'm not demonizing green, I'm somehow half orange half green, and a huge pacifist myself.

For what I can see, orange stage is all about freedom of sex and love, living fast, living young etc. This enabled the rock and roll lifestyle for both men and women.

What I start to see these years is that green stage is trying to limit the dating freedom by accusing everyone of BS harassment, in such a way that boys are becoming stifled and scared of dating. Isn't this kind of green thinking a defect of this stage? 
The feeling that I get is that some excesses of green stage might turn into a matriarchy with women becoming entitled to every guy's money and men becoming scared and stiff interacting with them. I'm not using a MGTOW argument, since I'm not one LOL. I like getting to date and know a girl intimately.

I'm just asking. Since I don't undestand why green isn't promoting free love and sex like orange was doing. I see a lot of shaming of sexuality, random allegations of harassment without evidence, and all that. Also all this blabbering about men being evil is just insane.

I think that a true green stage should be about loving everybody, not just women. 
Share your insights.

[Emerald]

Third-Wave Feminists are usually sex-positive and support body positivity and fat acceptance. They are pro-freedom of sexual expression for everyone regardless of gender identity or sexual orientation. They are also usually accepting of polyamory. And they disapprove of double standards against women being promiscuous, and dislike slut-shaming. And many support sex workers and want the profession to be legalized and safer.

So, Greens are actually radically accepting of sexuality in all shapes and forms... except if it encroaches upon the lives of others. So, they have discovered the pattern of rape culture which is an outgrowth of the stages before it that see female sexuality as a commodity and the woman as an object and not a subject that still flows as a strong undercurrent through society.

Bottom line is, the problem is that women have to deal with a lot of issues relative to sex that men don't have to deal with and that men usually aren't aware of. So, unaware men usually end up stepping on women's toes in various ways and going over boundaries. Or some don't even care or hate women and want negative things to happen to them. So, because these experiences are so common and sexual harassment and misogyny is just a given if you're a woman, there are many Green initiatives to fight against this problem.

The issue is that many Orange men are usually unconscious to these social patterns, given that they don't know what it's like to experience it firsthand. And they're also likely to equate female interest with their own worth, seeing female sexuality as an object and hot commodity to enhance their status. Then Blue men shame women for having sexual feelings or any divergence from monogamy. Then Red men don't care and will just do whatever they want without any qualms about what women think because they see women as property. 

So, men from these stages will be very unsympathetic to the struggles women go through and will make initiative like #metoo all about them and the restriction of their own freedom, without considering the state of society that produced so many "metoo" stories. They'll be like, "But what about my sexual desires?" and will even conjecture that women are making things up always assuming the perpetrator to be innocent of sexual misconduct and the accuser guilty of false accusation. 

But as a woman who was molested as a child by an older child and who has woken up three times in my teenage years to three different full grown men trying to do things to me in my sleep (and countless other minor experiences ranging from mild catcalling to outright stalking threats), this concern for men not wanting to date just isn't a priority compared to the broader social issues and their unique effects on me as a person. So, Greens gets very angry at Oranges especially for prioritizing their desires over the physical, psychological, and emotional safety of women.

That's why all the blue haired ones are always pissed off and yelling at everyone and jumping up and down like yo yos. But it's not because they're anti-sex. Quite the contrary. It's because they see that some people are taking up all the room in the collective "bedroom", leaving little room for others. 

[billiesimon]

14 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Third-Wave Feminists are usually sex-positive and support body positivity and fat acceptance. They are pro-freedom of sexual expression for everyone regardless of gender identity or sexual orientation. They are also usually accepting of polyamory. And they disapprove of double standards against women being promiscuous, and dislike slut-shaming. And many support sex workers and want the profession to be legalized and safer.

So, Greens are actually radically accepting of sexuality in all shapes and forms... except if it encroaches upon the lives of others. So, they have discovered the pattern of rape culture which is an outgrowth of the stages before it that see female sexuality as a commodity and the woman as an object and not a subject that still flows as a strong undercurrent through society.

Bottom line is, the problem is that women have to deal with a lot of issues relative to sex that men don't have to deal with and that men usually aren't aware of. So, unaware men usually end up stepping on women's toes in various ways and going over boundaries. Or some don't even care or hate women and want negative things to happen to them. So, because these experiences are so common and sexual harassment and misogyny is just a given if you're a woman, there are many Green initiatives to fight against this problem.

The issue is that many Orange men are usually unconscious to these social patterns, given that they don't know what it's like to experience it firsthand. And they're also likely to equate female interest with their own worth, seeing female sexuality as an object and hot commodity to enhance their status. Then Blue men shame women for having sexual feelings or any divergence from monogamy. Then Red men don't care and will just do whatever they want without any qualms about what women think because they see women as property. 

So, men from these stages will be very unsympathetic to the struggles women go through and will make initiative like #metoo all about them and the restriction of their own freedom, without considering the state of society that produced so many "metoo" stories. They'll be like, "But what about my sexual desires?" and will even conjecture that women are making things up always assuming the perpetrator to be innocent of sexual misconduct and the accuser guilty of false accusation. 

But as a woman who was molested as a child by an older child and who has woken up three times in my teenage years to three different full grown men trying to do things to me in my sleep (and countless other minor experiences ranging from mild catcalling to outright stalking threats), this concern for men not wanting to date just isn't a priority compared to the broader social issues and their unique effects on me as a person. So, Greens gets very angry at Oranges especially for prioritizing their desires over the physical, psychological, and emotional safety of women.

That's why all the blue haired ones are always pissed off and yelling at everyone and jumping up and down like yo yos. But it's not because they're anti-sex. Quite the contrary. It's because they see that some people are taking up all the room in the collective "bedroom", leaving little room for others. 

I deeply appreciate the response and I feel sorry and empathetic for your past. I have been bullied in the past and have had a lot of issues with people, so I understand your struggles with corrupted people in the past. I want everybody to feel safe.

I just get this feeling that you're treating me like one of those "arrogant" guys out there LOL. 

It's the same feeling that I get when I talk about TRUE equality with some "feminists". They get triggered. And I don't get why! 

We should all stop talkin about evil this and evil that, and just learn to love everybody, regardless of their gender.
Even all this hetero-shaming is insane. Let gays be gays, let heteros be heteros. What the heck is the problem?!? 
That's why, even though I AM half green, I don't get what these activists are doing. Just let everyone be gay, lesbians, or hetero. Who cares what you are?! Be what you want to be, be free, be happy! And also let me live my life without shaming my sex and my orientation.

I'm not attacking you  I just want people to be free of judgement, not to turn the pendulum the other way into an all female perspective. Also I don't like an all male perspective. Just let everybody do the fuck they wanna do!! Without harassing people of course. But let's just stop talking about it like it's a problem of MEN. It's not a problem of MEN. It's a problem of SOME people, of some individuals, who are ignorant and arrogant and intolerant. 

Let the other men be free and happy. So be the women.
Peace 

[Emerald]

19 minutes ago, billiesimon said:

I deeply appreciate the response and I feel sorry and empathetic for your past. I have been bullied in the past and have had a lot of issues with people, so I understand your struggles with corrupted people in the past. I want everybody to feel safe.

I just get this feeling that you're treating me like one of those "arrogant" guys out there LOL. 

It's the same feeling that I get when I talk about TRUE equality with some "feminists". They get triggered. And I don't get why! 

We should all stop talkin about evil this and evil that, and just learn to love everybody, regardless of their gender.
Even all this hetero-shaming is insane. Let gays be gays, let heteros be heteros. What the heck is the problem?!? 
That's why, even though I AM half green, I don't get what these activists are doing. Just let everyone be gay, lesbians, or hetero. Who cares what you are?! Be what you want to be, be free, be happy! And also let me live my life without shaming my sex and my orientation.

I'm not attacking you  I just want people to be free of judgement, not to turn the pendulum the other way into an all female perspective. Also I don't like an all male perspective. Just let everybody do the fuck they wanna do!! Without harassing people of course. But let's just stop talking about it like it's a problem of MEN. It's not a problem of MEN. It's a problem of SOME people, of some individuals, who are ignorant and arrogant and intolerant. 

Let the other men be free and happy. So be the women.
Peace 

I understand that you don't have any malice in your intentions at all, and I know you're not attacking me. So, I moreso see your post and the ideas in it as a mild outgrowth of the larger system that creates blind spots. Basically, I see you as thinking un-systemically and taking a narrow view on the issue causing you to have blind spots. So, I'm trying to communicate to you why things are the way they are, and show you that you're taking a narrower view on the issue than is beneficial in hopes that you will zoom out a bit more.

I get why you're all about what you call "true equality". I used to have the same exact belief. Just treat everyone the same and it will be fair. But while that idea would make perfect sense in an equal society, which you probably assume we have like I did before I became more aware. But in an unequal society (which is the reality) it's just becomes a feel-good platitude for those who have it quite good already and don't realize the struggles that others are dealing with. It's a way to sweep problems with fairness under the rug and not address issues that affect real people's lives. These ideas of equality mostly function in ways that keep people in an inherently better position in their comfort zone and assured of their own goodness, while washing their hands of systemic societal problems. 

Also, I've never heard of people engaging in "hetero-shaming", and if there are people doing that it isn't typical of the LGBTQ community. There's FAR more of the opposite. So, focusing on hetero-shaming which isn't a systemic issue EQUALLY to focusing on discrimination of LGBTQ community which is a systemic issue, is inherently unequal and unfair to people in the LGBTQ community who deal with discrimination all the time. Versus straight people who have to actually do a Google search titled "hetero-shaming" to actually find evidence of it.

Ask yourself, has anyone in your life every shamed you for being heterosexual? Have you ever lacked representation in the media as a heterosexual? Did your parents ever disown you for being heterosexual? Did you ever get bullied for being heterosexual? 

So, it's focusing on a non-issue to obscure a real issue. So, it's focusing too much on the smallest potatoes and missing the biggest ones. That's probably why people get mad at you. If someone is in Green, they may even assume that you're being intentionally hateful due to their lack of perspective.

So, I agree that it would be ideal if everyone could be free and happy. But society has barriers to freedom and happiness built into it, and ignoring it with sunshine and rainbows platitudes like "let everyone be free and happy" just ignores this fact and allows for those barriers to continue to exist. 

I may have a better example for you to illustrate the blindspots. Do you happen to be an atheist or follow an uncommon religion? 

 

[billiesimon]

9 minutes ago, Emerald said:

I understand that you don't have any malice in your intentions at all, and I know you're not attacking me. So, I moreso see your post and the ideas in it as a mild outgrowth of the larger system that creates blind spots. Basically, I see you as thinking un-systemically and taking a narrow view on the issue causing you to have blind spots. So, I'm trying to communicate to you why things are the way they are, and show you that you're taking a narrower view on the issue than is beneficial in hopes that you will zoom out a bit more.

I get why you're all about what you call "true equality". I used to have the same exact belief. Just treat everyone the same and it will be fair. But while that idea would make perfect sense in an equal society, which you probably assume we have like I did before I became more aware. But in an unequal society (which is the reality) it's just becomes a feel-good platitude for those who have it quite good already and don't realize the struggles that others are dealing with. It's a way to sweep problems with fairness under the rug and not address issues that affect real people's lives. These ideas of equality mostly function in ways that keep people in an inherently better position in their comfort zone and assured of their own goodness, while washing their hands of systemic societal problems. 

Also, I've never heard of people engaging in "hetero-shaming", and if there are people doing that it isn't typical of the LGBTQ community. There's FAR more of the opposite. So, focusing on hetero-shaming which isn't a systemic issue EQUALLY to focusing on discrimination of LGBTQ community which is a systemic issue, is inherently unequal and unfair to people in the LGBTQ community who deal with discrimination all the time. Versus straight people who have to actually do a Google search titled "hetero-shaming" to actually find evidence of it.

Ask yourself, has anyone in your life every shamed you for being heterosexual? Have you ever lacked representation in the media as a heterosexual? Did your parents ever disown you for being heterosexual? Did you ever get bullied for being heterosexual? 

So, it's focusing on a non-issue to obscure a real issue. So, it's focusing too much on the smallest potatoes and missing the biggest ones. That's probably why people get mad at you. If someone is in Green, they may even assume that you're being intentionally hateful due to their lack of perspective.

So, I agree that it would be ideal if everyone could be free and happy. But society has barriers to freedom and happiness built into it, and ignoring it with sunshine and rainbows platitudes like "let everyone be free and happy" just ignores this fact and allows for those barriers to continue to exist. 

I may have a better example for you to illustrate the blindspots. Do you happen to be an atheist or follow an uncommon religion? 

 

I want to be honest, I don't like the finger-pointing energy coming from your posts  but I get it that you want to fix these issues, I get it and I like it.

But... why are you assuming that I'm the bad guy?

Why are you assuming that I'm hetero?
Why are you assuming that I've had it EASY in life?

This is a HUGE blindspot. NOBODY has an easy life. Not even rich people. Life is harsh to everybody, in different ways. I've always been mocked for being skinny, a little bit feminine, too sensitive to be a boy, and all that crap. Yet you assume that I've had it easier than women.

Nobody has it easy. This is true equality, it's called life. Life is hard, and life always finds a way to traumatize you. My family treated my badly, so did a lot of my teenage friends. 
Stereotyping men as bullies and women as victims is just pure ignorance. Let the guilty ones be judged by their ACTIONS, not their sex. I've never treated a girl badly, and so did a lot of my friends. Are there bad men out there? YES! are there bad women out there? YES!

Should we stop it? YES! 
But the solution is not to shame me because you assume that I'm hetero and that I've had it easy. 
This shit about having it easy triggers me a LOT I want to be honest  I've had a lot of issues in my life and in my psyche, it's very disrespectful to treat me like a privileged noble class.

Peace  

[billiesimon]

I'm agnostic. I was christian in my teenage years, and left religion because I hated so much the christian community for sex shaming,

Now that I'm pretty green I'm very neutral towards religion.

[billiesimon]

@Emerald even though we're arguing I still love you ahah 

I'm just saying that it's not by shaming peaceful and caring guys like me that you will fix society.

You're just shooting your allies in the head and then complaining that you're all alone in your battle.

[Emerald]

I'm not arguing with you or trying to point fingers. You read it that way because it's probably what you expect. I don't think you're a bad guy at all. I just think you have blindspots. So, I was just trying to answer your original question to make you aware of why people are acting like they are to give you more context.

But, I assumed that you were heterosexual because most people are, quite frankly. Plus, your post made it seem like you're a guy concerned about dating women in the modern world. So, I just assumed that you were. But if you're not, I apologize for assuming. I'm bi-sexual myself. 

Also, I'm not assuming that you've had an easy life. I'm only assuming that you've never experienced the experience of being woman. And with that, I assume that you haven't dealt with the sexuality and dating landscape from the vantage point of a woman, which has very specific perils that men don't have to deal with. It is these issues, that men often get uncomfortable about and don't like to talk about. 

But it isn't just willful assholes that contribute to these patterns. The real culprit is unconsciousness. So, even peaceful and caring guys can unwittingly allow and even contribute to these negative patterns without meaning to. So, everything that I've written to you so far is not meant to be a personal indictment. It has been an attempt to show you that you have some blind spots.

The first thing is to let go of the limiting belief that everything always needs to be 100% equal to be fair. Sometimes blind mechanical equality can enforce pre-existing inequalities. 

But it's perfect that you're an agnostic for the analogy. So, Christianity is the most popular religion and Christians get certain privileges in society that people who are agnostic (or any other non-Christian religious orientation) don't get. Because Christianity is so popular, they tend to run with the idea that their religion is best, without being checked on it too much. And they can often think that they're being discriminated against, just by people having a different set of religous beliefs.

So, it can be an uncomfortable situation, for example, to be at a public event when everyone bows their head a prays to Jesus. It makes it a social expectation to conform to Christian norms. Or if a Christian person confronts you and asks you what your religion is or tries to convert you, it can be a very uncomfortable experience where you might be tempted to lie just to avoid it. 

Now, not all Christians are like this. And certainly, most of the Christians that are like this mean well. But it doesn't make the experience any more comfortable for non-Christians. 

So, if you as an Agnostic complained about that and noted your experience to a Christian. 

And then the Christian didn't really address your experiences and just answered with, well not all Christians are like that. Anyway, I believe that everyone should be able choose whatever makes you happy and so should Christians. So, those bad Christian shouldn't do that. But it's also important for the non-religious not to Christian-shame too. There are bad people on both sides.

But they are not really being empathetic and they aren't really listening. They are just trying to defend themselves and the thing they're identified with. The conversation is meant to shift the focus from real problems to their problem with the solutions. 

[billiesimon]

17 minutes ago, Emerald said:

I'm not arguing with you or trying to point fingers. You read it that way because it's probably what you expect. I don't think you're a bad guy at all. I just think you have blindspots. So, I was just trying to answer your original question to make you aware of why people are acting like they are to give you more context.

But, I assumed that you were heterosexual because most people are, quite frankly. Plus, your post made it seem like you're a guy concerned about dating women in the modern world. So, I just assumed that you were. But if you're not, I apologize for assuming. I'm bi-sexual myself. 

Also, I'm not assuming that you've had an easy life. I'm only assuming that you've never experienced the experience of being woman. And with that, I assume that you haven't dealt with the sexuality and dating landscape from the vantage point of a woman, which has very specific perils that men don't have to deal with. It is these issues, that men often get uncomfortable about and don't like to talk about. 

But it isn't just willful assholes that contribute to these patterns. The real culprit is unconsciousness. So, even peaceful and caring guys can unwittingly allow and even contribute to these negative patterns without meaning to. So, everything that I've written to you so far is not meant to be a personal indictment. It has been an attempt to show you that you have some blind spots.

The first thing is to let go of the limiting belief that everything always needs to be 100% equal to be fair. Sometimes blind mechanical equality can enforce pre-existing inequalities. 

But it's perfect that you're an agnostic for the analogy. So, Christianity is the most popular religion and Christians get certain privileges in society that people who are agnostic (or any other non-Christian religious orientation) don't get. Because Christianity is so popular, they tend to run with the idea that their religion is best, without being checked on it too much. And they can often think that they're being discriminated against, just by people having a different set of religous beliefs.

So, it can be an uncomfortable situation, for example, to be at a public event when everyone bows their head a prays to Jesus. It makes it a social expectation to conform to Christian norms. Or if a Christian person confronts you and asks you what your religion is or tries to convert you, it can be a very uncomfortable experience where you might be tempted to lie just to avoid it. 

Now, not all Christians are like this. And certainly, most of the Christians that are like this mean well. But it doesn't make the experience any more comfortable for non-Christians. 

So, if you as an Agnostic complained about that and noted your experience to a Christian. 

And then the Christian didn't really address your experiences and just answered with, well not all Christians are like that. Anyway, I believe that everyone should be able choose whatever makes you happy and so should Christians. So, those bad Christian shouldn't do that. But it's also important for the non-religious not to Christian-shame too. There are bad people on both sides.

But they are not really being empathetic and they aren't really listening. They are just trying to defend themselves and the thing they're identified with. The conversation is meant to shift the focus from real problems to their problem with the solutions. 

I'm not trying to be confrontational but this just proves my point  

I don't give a fuck what a muslim or a christian or a jew would say. It's my life. Got a problem with that? Go pray your allah. (not you, it's just an example )

If a christian says that I have a right to believe in what I want he's JUST RIGHT. It's not him defending himself, you're just distrusting people. He's just right on the facts. Who cares who says the facts straight? they are the right facts. If a terrorist says that you have a right to live, he IS right. Even though he is a terrorist. Who the fuck cares what other people think, You care too much.

If all people had the same mentality like me NOBODY would shame other individuals. There would be no latent sexism, 

And no... i don't have blindspots. If i see a muslim guy shaming a woman, I SEE sexism. I SEE IT. I DON'T like it. I don't want these people around women. I don't have no fucking blindspots, sister  i just want to encourage people to be empathetic and positive and NON-judgemental.

If we start to point finger to eachother... it's never going to end!!! Radical fems have to stop pointing fingers at normal positive guys, because these are the guys who just want women to live a happy and fullfilling life, rich of experiences, love, sex, money and success.

Society is shaped by mindsets, and by consensus. The consensus we need is to normalize social freedom for everybody: men, women, gays, heteros, lesbians, trans etc. Normalizing means NOT talking about it and encouraging people to be themselves.

 

What you call sweeping under the rug it's actually called rewiring society with positive values. If we all start to act like everynody has the same value, we will ALL get the same value, The old fashioned peace and love <3 nonetheless I'm still the bad misogynist guy who treats women like property  

 

P.s. I think that if you knew me in person you would categorize me immediately as a very very liberal person towards women. But here you are misunderstanding me, since it's the internet  

[billiesimon]

35 minutes ago, Emerald said:

I'm not arguing with you or trying to point fingers. You read it that way because it's probably what you expect. 

Yes, I expected it. Because nowadays nobody cares about leading a rich and fullfilling life, loving people and accepting everybody.

Now the trend is to scream and hate everybody. Liberals, conservatives, libertarians, etc... It's all screaming. It's all about "me me me me". "muh problems". It's not about the gift you can give to the world, it's not about the neutral playing field that we can create together, for world peace.

It's all about smashing cars and starbucks windows with antifa.

Sucks.

[Emerald]

If you don't want uncomfortable answers, don't ask uncomfortable questions. 

Edited July 1, 2018 by Emerald

[billiesimon]

12 minutes ago, Emerald said:

If you don't want uncomfortable answers, don't ask uncomfortable questions. 

I never said that. I just made a point about the actual social freedom you have, but you don't want to acknowledge. Who cares if some old man from the 1930s doesn't like your sexuality? I've been shamed a lot by christians years ago, and also for my open sexuality. WHO CARES. I have the law on my side, and you too. Leave them alone. I'm here to hear these uncomfortable truths, if you please tell me.

Still you don't get that I'm on your side though  

[Emerald]

Just now, billiesimon said:

I never said that. I just made a point about the actual social freedom you have, but you don't want to acknowledge. Who cares if some old man from the 1930s doesn't like your sexuality? I've been shamed a lot by christians years ago, and also for my open sexuality. WHO CARES. I have the law on my side, and you too. Leave them alone. I'm here to hear these uncomfortable truths, if you please tell me.

Still you don't get that I'm on your side though  

The thing is, you are not even understanding anything that I've said. I've told you a bunch of things, then you respond with mostly straw man arguments against what you think I'm implying, and tons of platitudes to defend your own personal character (despite the fact that I never once attacked your personal character). Your personal character is fine, I'm sure.

In truth, I wouldn't have even stopped to answer you question if I thought you were a willful asshole. But I thought you would at least be a little bit more receptive to what I'm telling you about the world that you don't already know, and why the state of things are the way they are. I feel like you're making concerted efforts specifically to avoid understanding what I'm saying, because it contradicts your worldview and your ideas of what equality means. I'm trying to pop your bubble, not hate on you.

But character isn't really the issue in most cases. Unconsciousness is. Most of the world's problems are propped up by well-meaning people.  And when you let go of your idea that you're not unconscious, then you might be able to empathize a bit better and get a clearer idea of what's going on in the world. But you're afraid of that, because you're content with comforting yourself on the idea that you're a good person and if more people were like you the world would be better. But that's just not the way things work. That's fantasy land. You can't wish the problems away with sunshine and rainbows. But the only way to transcend these issues is if a large percentage of society understands them at a deep level. That way, we don't unconsciously fall into negative patterns that contribute to those issues. 

The fact of the matter is, if we ignore problems and sweep them under the rug, they don't just magically disappear. They just rot there and get even worse. And these problems may not be super clear to those who aren't experiencing them daily.

So, ignorance is not a solution. Unless, you're unconsciously trying to solve the problem of your own discomfort. By which ignorance is a wonderful solution. But otherwise, if you really care about equality and freedom as more than just an ego concern, willful unconsciousness to social patterns is never a good solution. 

It can be helpful to think more systemically. That way you can see that social problems are not personal. So, if you're contributing unconsciously to a social problem, it's not your fault. But understand that if you're unconscious you will be certainly working as a cog in that machine. Sometimes the most obvious solution is all wrong. So, if you think more systemically, you can entertain different perspectives a bit better. The first twenty minute of the video goes into the basics of systems thinking, and the second twenty or so is about how to apply it to the inner world. So, hopefully this will help you get a better grasp of what I'm trying to say.

 

[billiesimon]

Ooooook..... You don't even know me and the values that I have, and you have already decided that I unconsciously spread sexism and contribute to the problem lol. That's so offensive in regard to all the emphasis I put in my life to be accepting and non-judgemental of everybody's sexuality but... ok... I'm the problem. I'm the ignorant bigot.

My bad. Thanks for the patience of taking part in the discussion. I sincerely appreciate the exchange. Have a nice day.

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, billiesimon said:

Ooooook..... You don't even know me and the values that I have, and you have already decided that I unconsciously spread sexism and contribute to the problem lol. That's so offensive in regard to all the emphasis I put in my life to be accepting and non-judgemental of everybody's sexuality but... ok... I'm the problem. I'm the ignorant bigot.

My bad. Thanks for the patience of taking part in the discussion. I sincerely appreciate the exchange. Have a nice day.

Please stop straw-manning. I didn't call you a bigot, and I didn't attack your character in any way. I'm just saying that you're unconscious to social patterns and that unconsciousness isn't a virtue or solution those problems. This is true no matter how much you genuinely value equality. But if you really value equality, I recommend learning how to think systemically. Sometimes the solutions are counter-intuitive.

[billiesimon]

Ok, I'll follow your suggestion.

[Emerald]

Thank you. 

[Spiral]

It’s interesting how often feminists and anti-feminists don’t understand each other when they argue. I don’t mean the two of you above I just mean in general. Both constantly misunderstand each other as if you spoke different languages.

[billiesimon]

3 hours ago, Spiral said:

It’s interesting how often feminists and anti-feminists don’t understand each other when they argue. I don’t mean the two of you above I just mean in general. Both constantly misunderstand each other as if you spoke different languages.

I'm not anti feminist. I'm just against "only one sex perspectives". Womens issues and mens issues are both important, at the same level.

[Emerald]

2 hours ago, billiesimon said:

I'm not anti feminist. I'm just against "only one sex perspectives". Womens issues and mens issues are both important, at the same level.

Both men and women's issues are important. I agree with that. But some issues in the world hold more weight, and it's wise that they are prioritized over others especially if two unequally weighted issues come into conflict with one another. So, if two issues run at cross purposes to one another in some way, the bigger issue should get priority and more focus.

For example, the issue we were talking about is that many guys are worried about the "metoo" movement because they're afraid of being seen in a particular light or being accused, which is NOT a non-issue. It can certainly be something difficult to navigate for an individual person. It's just that it's a small issue in comparison to a bigger problem. 

So, the issue of male discomfort at these stories coming to light shouldn't get equal priority to the bigger issue of the systemic problems that create so many "metoo" stories in the first place, and those stories being brought to the light of consciousness. But it's what I see so often, that so many people think those issue are equally worth talking about. And the same people get so triggered and identified with the issues at hand that they want to use their own self-focused concerns to steer the conversation away from the bigger issue, and many use their part of the dialogue to invalidate and to point out that the solution is being done incorrectly or in a way that creates too many discomforts. 

To focus on both equally is to be slanted in the favor of the status quo as it is to say that both issues are of the same level of importance and do the same level of damage. And it's so often that so many people like to shift the focus from the real victims, to themselves and their discomfort with the social changes going on. And they pick that as their hill to die on. Or they get blinded by ideas of absolute equality and pick that as their hill to die on. And it's not just you. I see it a lot. 

Ironically, the dogma of absolute equality is actually a blind-spot created by liberal-minded people, who want to weigh all concerns as being equal and all opinions as equal. But this is not true of how reality works. It's the illusion of "wokeness." The limitations of this absolute equality dogma has been a huge awakening for those on the left in recent years.