Does free will exist?

[Bobby]

14 minutes ago, metwinn said:

@Bobby I don't think believe that we have any free will to begin with. If free will does exist as you say and we both see the self to be an illusion then where do you think that this control lies?

@metwinn  in the inherent intelligence of consciousness. which is what the self, mind, universe, is made of.

Edited June 28, 2018 by Bobby

[metwinn]

@lmfao yes, it's us humans that ruin the freedom of it all by giving meaning behind the game of tennis, when in actuality it's really simple. Form interacting with form because more form has been interacting with other form.

[Faceless]

4 minutes ago, metwinn said:

@Faceless

Yes that makes sense but I don't think it proves free will

I am just pointing to how we will say one thing and contradict that notion by our action. The subtlety of illusion. 

Edited June 28, 2018 by Faceless

[metwinn]

@Faceless you can act in the accordance of the illusion of freewill, but even then there is no "you" acting. It's only the mind that gives it all meaning and creates the illusion of the doer. The doer is the doing the doing is the doer etc. 

[Faceless]

3 minutes ago, metwinn said:

@Faceless you can act in the accordance of the illusion of freewill, but even then there is no "you" acting. It's only the mind that gives it all meaning and creates the illusion of the doer. The doer is the doing the doing is the doer etc. 

Right but if you are acting in accordance to the illusion you are still bound by it. This distinguishes the difference between one who embodies no self and one who does not.

we may have a conceptualized understanding of the doer is the doing, but we dont see it as a fact.

The problem of embodiment 

Edited June 28, 2018 by Faceless

[metwinn]

@Faceless ah, but you can know it to be absolutely true, I can't imagine believing otherwise. Also there is no you to be bound by it

[Faceless]

Bottom line, we seek security psychologically, we believe in freewill 

[Ananta]

5 minutes ago, Faceless said:

I am just pointing to how we will say one thing and contradict that notion by our action. The subtlety of illusion. 

Have you ever stopped to think that even "this", is determined.

[Faceless]

1 minute ago, metwinn said:

@Faceless ah, but you can know it to be absolutely true, I can't imagine believing otherwise. Also there is no you to be bound by it

The you is an illusion, but that illusion is a fact as well. 

 

[metwinn]

1 minute ago, Anna1 said:

Have you ever stopped to think that even "this", is determined.

Thank you. I don't understand how it can be possible that it's not determined and when you understand this you feel incredibly free.

[Ananta]

3 minutes ago, metwinn said:

Thank you. I don't understand how it can be possible that it's not determined and when you understand this you feel incredibly free.

♡♡♡

Yes, it's true we sometimes forget and don't feel so free, but it's ALL part of the dream story. All of it, even the forgetting and waking back up.

Remember though, we don't know what's determined and since it will still feel like free-will, always try your best. 

 

[metwinn]

@Anna1

2 minutes ago, Anna1 said:

♡♡♡

Yes, it's true we sometimes forget and don't feel so free, but it's ALL part of the dream story. All of it, even the forgetting and waking back up.

Remember though, we don't know what's determined and since it will still feel like free-will, always try your best. 

 

will do Anna 

[Ananta]

3 minutes ago, metwinn said:

@Anna1

will do Anna 

[Faceless]

1 hour ago, Anna1 said:

Have you ever stopped to think that even "this", is determined.

Yes, great question friend. Hold on give me a sec. 

toddler is going nuts right now. Lol 

Edited June 28, 2018 by Faceless

[pluto]

Yes and No.

You will be given a "Theme" or "Particular life/path" Ultimately all goes back to source so you could say, on a Higher Level(if you will) all is preset to eventually lead to the same completeness but how you choose to play out this "theme/path" is entirely up-to you.

 

 

Edited June 28, 2018 by pluto

[cirkussmile]

2 hours ago, Faceless said:

E wiSeeking enlightenment for example implies one is acting in accordance to the illusion of freewill. 

 

I like this. It is possible to seek enlightenment but then it shows that there is no seeker ?

 

Which means free will excist until it doesnt

Edited June 28, 2018 by cirkussmile

[Faceless]

Here is something i have thought about, let me know what you think....

 

Thought which is conditioned is one and the same movement of will/the thinker...And “our thought”, which is the result of past thought, implies that “our thought” and the direction in which “we” direct “our will”, is determined. 

 

No thoughts are “yours” or “my” thoughts actually. They are the result of past conditioning...In this case thought, will, choice, is determined by collective and personal conditioning, which is followed by action. So that action is not action born of freedom. That action would be determined by the program (conditioning) in which we as “the thinker” responds to.

 

Are we free as the chooser who chooses? 

 

The chooser implies division/duality, therefore that chooser acts in accordance to the inevitable contradiction, confusion, and conflict in that concluded notion as the illusory thinker....As long as there is conflict there is fear. So if action is influenced by fear, illusion will always follow. 

 

Doesn’t this not imply that all action influenced by thought/will is both determined, and not free at all? 

 

To conclude this nightmarish post, if we are seeking security as the i, through identification with thought (desire-will), which is influenced by past conditioning, doesn’t all that ultimately imply determined action? 

 

The extent that we are free of thought-time, is the degree in which we are free of will-desire, and therefore free of determined action. 

 

Only in this we wouldn’t include the use of the word “will” at all. It would just be FREEDOM. 

 

If that makes sense. Lol ?

Edited June 28, 2018 by Faceless

[Faceless]

5 minutes ago, cirkussmile said:

I like this. It is possible to seek enlightenment but then it shows that there is no seeker ?

 

Which means free will excist until it doesnt

Right, free-will ultimately implies there is no freedom at all, But when we cease to act according to will/thought, which is not free, there is FREEDOM. 

Edited June 28, 2018 by Faceless

[Nahm]

@Faceless

[Faceless]

26 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

You're stuck in the Conceptual Truth Paradigm and the Belief Paradigm.  Existential Truth doesn't speak.

Indeed, (TRUTH) is beyond that which is relative, or causality. That which thought operates on is relative. 

This is a statement made in the correct and incorrect field. Conceptual truth is not truth at all. We know this buddy. 

What did you think of the thought being old, never new, and therefore not free, therefore determined? 

Relatively of course 

Edited June 28, 2018 by Faceless