To you advanced actualizers - Can one be too good?

[MarkusSweden]

All This spiral Dynamics talks got me into thinking about how big This actualization thing acctually is. 

Although I'm orange/green I can imagine how many stages that are above me. And that there are stuff to explore and New heights to develope towards for as long as I live.

Some of you are up there at yellow, turquoise or even higher. 

But question is, can you be too good so speak? 

Too good to fit in to the system/society that is? 

After all, Everyone need to support themselves. And how would one of you that is up there with second tier fit in to my workplace for example, where humor, gossiping, ego and understanding are at my level or even below that. 

You see what I mean? How would you fit in to that?

You can't be too good if you want to fit in to the system.

If you stand out in any individual kind of way you don't keep system Commodities going?

Or am I wrong?

Thanks god I'm orange! ?

Edited June 23, 2018 by MarkusSweden

[Faceless]

Do you see the expression of fear up above?

Free yourself from all this nonsense my friend. All this classification, measuring, and the attempt to cultivate spiritual growth is all a movement of fear. 

As long as there is this movement of measure, spirituality is not. This is all a movement of time, THE TRAP. A perpetual movement in, and as illusion. 

If we see the self as an illusion, then why do we keep acting in accordance to that illusion? Why is every movement we take towards and away from fear?

I say this to you as a friend/brother/another me , be sensitive to the subtle forms of fear. Don’t let fear blind you from recognizing fear. 

End the movement of time by understanding that very movement...That which is  immeasurable is always there, we just need to cut the shackles of measure. But by no means can we do that by moving in accordance to measure. As long as there is measure you are caught in your own invention of thought, which is one and the same movement of fear. 

Edited June 23, 2018 by Faceless

[Nahm]

@MarkusSweden I wouldn’t mix “ too good “, with aware of the truth of the situation. One is judgement, the other just the actuality. Awareness makes for a beautiful life, for ease, compassion, understanding, in all relationships,  etc. There’s no catch or ‘unfitting’.  Anyways, if you perceive the “system” or environment as ill, why would you want to fit into it, rather, contribute to the unity, which stems from perspective. There’s no need to comment “in good” when you are in an environment with ego, gossip etc. Simply remaining peace unattached speaks louder than words can. Folks feel their own falsities in the presence of those aware of the truth. 

[Arkandeus]

the mere fact that you ask this question means that you feel that way

and what is, is

what you feel is real and is happening, thats how quick it goes

there comes a point where you need to make a decision around the people that you surround yourself with

that is my opinion

[cirkussmile]

8 hours ago, Arkandeus said:

the mere fact that you ask this question means that you feel that way

and what is, is

what you feel is real and is happening, thats how quick it goes

there comes a point where you need to make a decision around the people that you surround yourself with

that is my opinion

Yes. 

Markus, you are telling us from time to time that something needs to happen with those who are close to you.

It is possible to break up with people without them knowing it ? 

 

[dynamics]

What do you mean by being to good ? 

And why would you want to fit in an ill system ?

[MarkusSweden]

5 hours ago, cirkussmile said:

Yes. 

Markus, you are telling us from time to time that something needs to happen with those who are close to you.

It is possible to break up with people without them knowing it ? 

 

You don't know how much your words influence me! 

I need that last push I guess. 

Your Journey is so inspiering! We spoked to each other long time ago before you put all This into action. And you had some kind of hesitation around your aura back then!

That's completely Gone now! I'm happy for you man, Hope you keep visit This forum every now and then, we need you. 

Besides! Most important! You build a stucture around your life that give you possibility to grow into turquoise and even higher. You cut ties with that which hold you back. 

And That's what yellow is all about - system thinking! 

Most people Maybe have inner potential to reach Those hights, But will fail due to outer structures. Those you should set by wise systemthinking. 

You are one of few here that acctually have a life imo. 

[aurum]

17 hours ago, MarkusSweden said:

You see what I mean? How would you fit in to that?

You can't be too good if you want to fit in to the system.

Why would you want to fit into the system? I'm trying to be as contrarian as my ego will allow me.

The fact is that yes, you will clash with some of the ways the system is currently set up. But you also won't care.

[cirkussmile]

6 hours ago, MarkusSweden said:

I'm happy for you man

Thank you!

Im happy for you too! You will make it  

[Bobby]

@MarkusSweden not if you’re fearless

fearless square pegs can contribute to breaking a round hole, and not necessarily by doing anything but being themselves

Edited June 24, 2018 by Bobby

[Forestluv]

Am I too good to fit into nature? After all, the rain just caused the drowning of thousands of insects. A snake just ate a cute little mouse. A squirrel pooped on the trail. Two birds have conflict over territory. It makes the office look like a love-fest.

[Hotaka]

Curious question Markus, I like it, not bad, something I have been contemplating as well. I seem to go from one day of, oh I have so postponed my actualization of Knowledge in my life, and another day it's like omg the veil is so thin if I only let a little current or thread through I will be flooded, oh god, I am in public, why am I so important? Why do I have so much control, Knowledge or something else inexplicable trying to come through me which will surely make a great impact? I can have other times even where it's just like, oh holy shit, it's all too much, and this can even be, it's all too much to learn now, but if I did, it would never fit here. Or don't look at that person, he will send you an imprint you don't need, so don't look and don't even breathe. Or look at that person, oh I just gave them a message I think, or possibly even someone at a great distance, I am staring at them without wanting to. Why? Something is evolving and changing within me, I don't know what it is, but I will let it happen to the fullness of my ability, and if the world blows up as a result of my enlightenment or awakening/initiation, so what! Fuck you all, and I say this in my head, to chase away form to give room for spirit, I feel like blessing large areas of space often, but I am too lazy to do so, but feel it is part of my normal communication. I could be in a room and start deep inner listening and really feel what is going on at the bottom of someone's heart as if it is occurring in my heart and it's too much, cause in talking to them it's like they need to confess to me I don't want to be the one to hear this.

But here is the thing, being incognito and not standing out so much like a sore thumb, or other times like something else ?, would be so much better. I don't know how ignorant people are, how much of an interaction they can see, how much they remember, cause I can remember in most circumstances any movement that occurs. And if I knew no one else cared or noticed me, I would be happier, because I would be more free to be myself, ever expanding consciousness, like a tripper that doesn't fit in on a trip, but isn't tripping, or a tripper who is doing some weird fabric of reality bending ritual or activity without anyone feeling he is doing any harm!

[Bill Eichman]

Yeah, it's something that comes up. Repeatedly, in fact. As you do this kind of work, you will change, and those changes will lead to various kinds of problems and challenges. One that recurs is the question of how to position yourself with regards to the main flows of the society in which we found ourselves, and another that recurs is how will you manage "Rendering unto Ceasar", that is, taking care of the practical matters of being within this societies influence, making sure you have a place to live, food, and whatever other things you decide you will choose to have and pay for.

This becomes a problem with more charge and larger consequences if you have, either intentionally or unintentionally, created a love and sex relationship. And if you have gotten each other pregnant and now expect or have children, well, that is MUCH more intense.

Expect to spend a fair amount of time-solving those problems. Expect some grief from that process. 

This is one of the areas that is a critical success factor for really successful self-development, and the work and training to become more conscious and integrated, and then awakened, genuinely present, and wise. There is not enough training in the practical skills that one has to have to go along with it. This is especially true in the teaching systems that evolved from the monastic traditions, which came to the US and set up shop. But, it's true everywhere.

Leo seems to be doing a better than average job of trying to teach and make available teaching oif those skills here. That's definitely rare, the exception, not the rule.

Because self-development is a "spiral" process, that is, one repeats the same lessons again and again, but on a higher level, you will end up facing these problems multiple times. And because you change, you won't want to be using the same solutions every time. You may find yourself completely changing your way of life as you go through each major Age Stage Change, and the Age Stages hit you as regular as clockwork, roughly every ten years, faster if you are pushing yourself to move faster.

And, something that is not mentioned often - there are multiple "enlightenments". Each offers its own puzzles to solve and it's own challenges and transformations and obligations. Something you had no ethical problems resolving when you are 25 can generate an ethical reaction and  dharma obligation at 45 that overturns everything you thought you knew.

Here's the thing, tho, about dealing with the problems of supporting yourself or coping with the sickness of our parent society. You become stronger, clearer minded, smarter, and less easily tormented or tricked by the games of society and the pressures of the damages in our minds that society implanted in us. Your creativity will increase, pretty dramatically. And your sense of what you "need" changes even more dramatically. You adapt more quickly. You see possibilities you would not have been able to see before. And you can learn new things much faster, if you choose to.

So, usually, solving the problems is not that hard.

BUT, we are in a time of social and economic decline, currently. Our society has gotten sicker. It actively chose to go down a path that hurts young people economically (that hurts everyone not born into a wealthy family, technically). Lets hope that various forces make this a temporary decline. But it may also get worse, even much worse. We will have to deal with whatever fate and dharma bring.

(Another minor 'but'. A side effect of this work is that a person can become less willing to deal with the bullshit of our parent society. This can make people that develop subject to a strong need to say "fuck this shit, I got to get away from these bad vibes". It can also make us bore easily, craving the new. If you get that effect, again, you have to figure out how to deal with it.  )


 

[tsuki]

@MarkusSweden Perception of your surroundings is dependent on the degree in which you embody enlightenment/growth.
Your model of growth that you habitually use to judge others is too constrained.
You need to make it more ambiguous to be more generous with your interpretations of others' behavior.

Edited June 25, 2018 by tsuki

[Bill Eichman]

@tsuki Can you give an example or two of how you see the things you\'ve suggested as working out in actual life experience? Let's say an enlightened human decided to work in the cubicles. And they apply your approach, are generous with their interpretation of other's behaviors. What happens then? 

And what the principles are that would produce the effects that you are suggesting? 

What do you figure the origins of these ideas are? What schools, what teachers?

[Faceless]

1 hour ago, tsuki said:

Perception of your surroundings is dependent on the degree in which you embody enlightenment/growth.

As long as there is compulsion for spiritual enlightenment/spiritual growth, ones perception will remain narrow and within the limited field of the conditioned consciousness. Perception is then limited to that very conditioned movement of time. 

@MarkusSwedenPerhaps rid yourself of the falsity and burden of spiritual/psychological growth, it implies time, and time makes for finite observation. 

 

 

Edited June 25, 2018 by Faceless

[tsuki]

1 hour ago, Bill Eichman said:

Can you give an example or two of how you see the things you\'ve suggested as working out in actual life experience? Let's say an enlightened human decided to work in the cubicles. And they apply your approach, are generous with their interpretation of other's behaviors. What happens then?

As generosity of interpretation I mean - extend your definitions of negative traits in such a way that they feel justified. Not, as justification in a sense of being weak and explaining yourself to authority, but genuinely justified. In what cases anger is justified? In what cases gossip is justified?

Gossip is annoying in a sense that it tries to build trust on the expense of another person. Perceptive people understand that a person that engages in gossip will also gossip about the person they talk with. That is a method of building trust by undermining it.
Ambiguity about gossip comes from the fact that you never know whether the person actually tells the truth or just makes shit up to sound knowledgeable about others. There is no way to tell lies from truth about other people, even if everybody talks the same stupid shit. Everybody could be repeating lies, for that matter. If this is not a reliable way to spread information then why do you care?

Well, you care because of your reputation. You are trying to look good so that your work is appreciated by the higher-ups. After all, your career may crash if somebody said something stupid about you to your boss. But is this really the case? He is your boss, after all. He's been through this himself and is probably a veteran of gossip, so why would you think that he can't see what you see about gossip? Is it perhaps that you think that your boss is stupid yourself? Well then - perhaps people that talk shit about your boss behind his back think the same way you do? Perhaps they really think and mean what they say? Not in a malicious way, but are genuinely saying what bothers them about other people? That they are looking for connection with others because of fear of other people? That they are trying to gain your trust to open up, but you're actually being close-minded and judgmental? That all people are really pissed off by other people's gossip and cannot see that they engage in it? Because what are you doing right now? Talking shit about your workplace out of genuine concern for your well-being. Looking for connection with others!

Gossip is not a strategy. You make other people gossip by judging them for what they say. This judgement then prevents you from genuinely listening to other people. Because what they say about others is an expression of their existence. Their understanding of others, however annoying it is, is them. You are the one that makes people into liars by judging their words. There is no way to tell truth from lies in a practical situation. All language is deeply ambiguous.

TL;DR: the effect of making a model ambiguous is to produce disinterest. So that it does not trigger you.

1 hour ago, Bill Eichman said:

And what the principles are that would produce the effects that you are suggesting? 

There is only one principle: benevolence that is not assumed, but seen.

1 hour ago, Bill Eichman said:

What do you figure the origins of these ideas are? What schools, what teachers?

If you're asking about my teachers, I had none. I used to listen to Allan Watts a lot, but not anymore.
These are observations from my everyday experience.

Edited June 25, 2018 by tsuki
TL;DR of the long paragraph

[tsuki]

1 hour ago, Faceless said:

Perhaps rid yourself of the falsity and burden of spiritual/psychological growth, it implies time, and time makes for finite observation. 

It does not imply time. It is not movement of fear.
Thought is mechanical in nature and it flows by itself. I had a period of being driven by thought, but now I am separate from it. I let it go its own way.
For now, it is occupied with growth. It reorganizes itself. It feels as if the world shifts and warps around me. 
Thought and insight go hand in hand, mechanically. Thought acquired a new dimension, not predicated on fear.
It has to run its course to become still once more. I won't be getting in its way.

Bear in mind that we may be talking about two different things, friend. 
I may have not yet reached you, or you may have not yet reached me.
There is no way to tell.

[Faceless]

2 minutes ago, tsuki said:

Bear in mind that we may be talking about two different things, friend. 
I may have not yet reached you, or you may have not yet reached me.
There is no way to tell.

Indeed...

What are you attempting to grow? 

5 minutes ago, tsuki said:

I had a period of being driven by thought, but now I am separate from it. I let it go its own way.

I understand, but how do you know that this is so?

What are indicators when thought is in movement determining/influencing incomplete action? 

How does one know that thought has not attributed to itself an independent existence that it is indeed separate from thought? 

Have you gone into this?

I find it rather useful indeed. This is what my main concern is her on the forum. The discussion of time is as far as I will go in communication with another. That which is timeless comes in that understanding.  

[Faceless]

Cultivation of growth is a necessity to some in practical/functional area of life, but my point is in the psychological field it has no place. When all that condition movement of the self seeking psychological security ends, only then does the “spiritual timeless” come into being. 

You see my point here?