What's the relationship between your Spiral Dynamics stage and enlightenment?

[lmfao]

I'm not sure what view to take on Spiral Dynamics. It seems to me that your position on the stage isn't necessarily related to the "degree to which you are enlightened" [I'm using quotation marks because I think words and concepts fail in capturing the nature of enlightenment]. Because of this, idk how to view it. 

I say this because it seems completely feasible to me that someone who embodies stage Red could be extremely conscious and enlightened. You could get a non neurotypical person who murders as a hobby but is at the same time, emotionally and psychologically healthy. The same goes for any many other stages.

And a second point I want to mention is that someone in stage (x+1) will not necessarily be more conscious that someone in stage (x). Sure, there might be a correlation between your stage and consciousness level.

But the fact that being in a higher stage doesn't gaurentee that you are of higher consciousness is indicitave of the fact that the foundational criteria used to put someone in a stage is separate from degree of consciousness, or the criteria is based upon on how different degrees of consciousness typically manifest (in contrast to telling you how different degrees of consciousness atypically manifests). 

Edited June 20, 2018 by lmfao

[White]

@lmfao The mistake you make is you think that there is such a thing as enlightenment. If you are interested then think of it another way - you can have nondual experience, but when you come out of it you will interpret it according to the stage you're actually at. Non dual experience can help you expand your framework and move up the ladder to more complex ways of making meaning. 

Edited June 20, 2018 by White

[White]

@lmfao If you are interested I can show you research data done on observations of the 1st person experience of each stage. I already posted how blue thinks in the mega thread Leo started. Red will never be conscious in relation to the existing paradigms we already know about. Red is the first stage where awareness of itself arises, but it can't yet take 2 perspectives on anything. It can't inhabit a we space, it's completely bound to it's own impulses and ideas.  It has absolutely no concept of another person. Back in the day it was the cutting edge, but now it's a very bad place to be stuck. 

[Elisabeth]

4 hours ago, lmfao said:

And a second point I want to mention is that someone in stage (x+1) will not necessarily be more conscious that someone in stage (x). Sure, there might be a correlation between your stage and consciousness level.

I agree. I love spiral dynamics - ever since Leo released his first video, I've made many interesting observations and it has helped my thinking about people a lot.  But, I think that taking spiral dynamics as a linear model is too simplistic. People are always a mixture of stages, more or less pronounced, and also, it's not the only axis of developpment.

I think since spiral dynamics is mainly a model of perspectives, there's a lot of development of avareness possible within each stage. 

You can develop qualities like mindfulness and concentration (and also compassion?) to deep levels, while being completely in blue. That would be christian or buddhists monks.

Also, not everyone who "is" at a higher stage has integrated the lower stages to the same extent. You can be born in a "hippie" family and really live green values, such as compassion, ecology, moral relativity and plurality of perspectives, but you could be terrible at asserting yourself since you skipped most of orange, as well as treat some of the green memes in a totally dogmatic blue way . 

It does get confusing. But you can go like "Oh, this person has a blue perspective on this particular topic. That means, if his opinion is going to evolve, it's probably gonna have to go through orange to green and first get more accepting of individuality before really feeling into other people."

Or "This person is totally not seeing what's going on here. How can such a smart person be so blind to the bigger picture? Um, I guess he doesn't respect where people at are yet. He's just a brilliant thinker in orange. He needs to step more intogreen and yellow. Is there any way I can offer a green perspective?"

Edited June 20, 2018 by Elisabeth

[Guest Quanty]

Discovering all the color spectrum in oneself, including the invisible spectrum, leads to awakening. 

I the past I used to move in Red the most with the inner being in Blue. ex christian. 

Edited June 20, 2018 by Quanty

[lmfao]

@White

On 6/20/2018 at 3:08 PM, White said:

@lmfao The mistake you make is you think that there is such a thing as enlightenment. If you are interested then think of it another way - you can have nondual experience, but when you come out of it you will interpret it according to the stage you're actually at. Non dual experience can help you expand your framework and move up the ladder to more complex ways of making meaning. 

I disagree with you in thinking that enlightenment doesn't exist, although the concept called "enlightenment" isn't a simple term to use because you can't use concepts to describe a state of being which is beyond concepts, and me saying that you cant use concepts to describe a state of being beyond concepts has already created a paradox because all sentences that I type are concepts.

23 hours ago, White said:

@lmfao If you are interested I can show you research data done on observations of the 1st person experience of each stage

That would indeed be interesting. 

 

From how you are describing Spiral Dynamics, you seem to be (saying)/(agreeing with me) that non-dual experiences can happen irregardless of your stage. You say that moving up the ladder corresponds to "more complex ways of making meaning" , but I don't know by what standard complexity of meaning is measured. From a pure non-duality perspective, I see all the stages as different ideological positions of reality which are all equally ungrounded.

But if we are to try to look at Spiral Dynamics through the lens of something which is not non-duality, I still don't understand what Spiral Dynamics is trying to map. I'm just personally not of the view the human development follows this linear development of stages. Everyone has a different neurology, and so developmental milestones for one person will not be developmental milestones for another person. I myself am someone who is naturally low in empathy, and I don't ever see myself as someone who will ever embody green as a phase in my development of a person.

Edited June 21, 2018 by lmfao

[White]

@lmfao ok give me some time and I'll get back to you soon