When you are enlightened - Do "you" remember "who" "you" once were?

[White]

28 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Nice!  You’re getting it.  It’s important to get it.  Keep following that insight.  You’ve located one of the trailheads for Enlightenment.  Now you gotta deep-dive that insight down its rabbit hole.  Now you are know what thought-stories are.  Start to be able to notice them in real life.  Notice how many thought-stories Enlightened people tell.  The other trailhead is you need to discover what awareness is and is not.  Meditation is a great way to start down that rabbit hole. Start a meditation habit asap.  

I'm mocking you. I don't believe your stuff. I already said you're not enlightened because according to the research yellow and turquoise isn't enlightenment. It's only at unitive do people become aware of their meaning making.

I don't think anyone can really become enlightened full time anyway.  Spiral dynamics is a map of phenomena and what we know about what enlightenment is that it's not a state or station, it's not perceivable or conceivable. Enlightenment seems like a process more than anything else. I think you concocted your OWN story about what enlightenment is and have made that your identity. You don't sound very wise. You think other teachers don't teach awareness, or that they are ineffective because they are not getting scars from blowback. That doesn't sound too healthy to me..getting scars from people getting angry with you? You should know your place and only coach people who ask for your opinion. 

Edited June 20, 2018 by White

[Guest Quanty]

Song Quote:

"Nobody knows the trouble I've seen..."

 

[White]

Just now, Joseph Maynor said:

It’s not about belief.  You don’t get it.  Enlightenment is not about belief.  It’s funny how you want to dismiss me. 

Now you're getting all shitty and taking it personally that I don't swallow your bullshit immediately. 

 

[White]

3 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

It’s not about belief.  You don’t get it.  Enlightenment is not about belief.  It’s funny how you want to dismiss me. 

You come across as aggressive pushy and overy sensitive. 

Plus you write in an inflammatory way.

There is no way you are self aware. Absolutely no way. You're a regular frustrated chump. 

[White]

5 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Keep parading your ignorance.

Is this your line when people don't agree wholesale with your bullshit?

They are ignorant and the ones who believe you are smart?

This is low level stuff. Even orange is aware of how abusive this is. If you can't see it then you're not even orange yet.

Plus your impulsive. You send hit on your post and then go back and edit it because you can't control yourself. You cant act in a composed way and just write what you need to say in one go.

Enlightened my ass

Edited June 20, 2018 by White

[White]

3 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

You don’t appreciate what I’m trying to teach yet.  That’s fine.  Hey — I least I care enough to try to help you with your desire to pursue Enlightenment.  Enlightenment is not a pleasant path.

Maybe people dont want your help? You should learn to respect people's boundaries. 

[White]

3 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Maybe you should keep your opinions to yourself until you know what you’re talking about.  Maybe you should learn to listen instead of being so quick to judge and to moralize.  Enlightenment is not about judging and moralizing, see?

You have no idea what enlightenment is about 

It's not about teachers ramming a teaching down others throats and telling them to give up their scepticism because they are not as enlightened as some frustrated chump who read a bit of spiral dynamics and watched a bunch of videos on YouTube and now thinks he's the big daddy. 

You're seriously fucking off the chart buddy and someone should stop you. 

[Saumaya]

Im not even surprised at this point. People make conclusions about enlightenment and judge whether other people are enlightened or not and then claim they are not enlightened themselves. What authority do you have then. Enlightenment is not ideal projection of a person, thats focusing outward. Outward doesn't matter as far as enlightenment is concerned. Enlightenment is something very specific.  There is a difference between living life and getting enlightened. I hope more people would at least get this. This is the biggest initial trap.

[WaterfallMachine]

1 hour ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Good.  Become more aware how stories differ from awareness.  Focus inward on this instead of arguing outward.  You gotta grok it.  That mindfulness alone will serve you.  Keep building on that mindfulness and your awareness will expand over time.  You’re too focused on arguing outward instead of focusing inward.  Enlightenment is not about beliefs — it’s about transcending the Belief Paradigm.  If you’re arguing about beliefs you’re 500 miles in the wrong direction from Enlightenment.  Yes, this is a story too — but it’s a useful story, a pointer for you.  The only relevant issue for you is are you Enlightened.  Don’t lose sight of that ball.

Again, you’re making the same conclusions on me without any evidence — I’m already aware of this. The bad thing about giving advice forcefully is that you assume the person is stupider and does not already know this. It’s basic respect not to assume or judge others too quickly — yet here you are.

Edited June 20, 2018 by WaterfallMachine

[White]

1 hour ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Whatever.  I’m done arguing with you.  I’ve done enough for you to get you started.  You’re a white belt thinking he’s a fifth-degree black belt.  Talk is cheap buddy.  Do some of the work and then we’ll talk further.  And you’re not so nice in your language to me, yet you moralize about my language.  You don’t even understand morality yet.  Listen at this stage.  Be a sponge.  Hold that tongue for a while.  Give me the benefit of the doubt of at least assuming I’m teaching in good faith.  If you can’t do that, you’re just gonna be tail-chasing at your stage.  When you’re talking you’re not listening.  You need to be listening right now.  

I mean, seriously dude, no offence meant, but who the fuck do you think you are? I already told you I don't consider you enlightened or a teacher or even barely able to string a cohesive teaching together. I'm not your student. I did actually invite some coaching but then I retracted that because you told me that enlightenment is about studying enlightenment and that I should go watch Leo's videos. You have lost the plot. I wonder how you would get on at a real integral forum? You seem to get away with it here because this is a beginner's site. 

[White]

20 minutes ago, WaterfallMachine said:

Again, you’re making the same conclusions on me without any evidence — I’m already aware of this. The bad thing about giving advice forcefully is that you assume the person is stupider and does not already know this. It’s basic respect not to assume or judge others too quickly — yet here you are.

What he's done is introjected a belief that enlightenment is about being aware of thought stories and now all he's apparently seeing is thought stories projected outside of himself. He has actually no integrated skills because of this, because all those life skills are now just labelled "thought stories" in his mind so he has basically split off all his mental faculties and thinks that he can trash another's boundary by forcing his truth down their throats. This is psychological abuse and it's a shtick.  

Edited June 20, 2018 by White

[WaterfallMachine]

People, just ignore @Joseph Maynor, he’s not worth your time anymore.

1 minute ago, White said:

What he's done is interjected a belief that enlightenment is about being aware of thought stories and now all he's apparently seeing is thought stories projected outside of himself. He has actually no integrated skills because of this, because all those life skills are not just labelled "thought stories" so he has basically split off all his mental faculties and thinks that he can trash another's boundary by forcing his truth down their throats. This is psychological abuse 

Maybe it’s best to ignore the abuse. Being diagnosed PTSD myself, lots of people around the trauma community have experiences getting traumatized because of people like this — and usually the best way to get them to stop is not to argue back or even ignore them that will make them more aggressive to you, but to give vague neutral statements — like “I see,” or “Alright.”

People like this feed on other’s emotional reactions, and I’ve decided to not try to convince him anymore. At this point, there is no hope. Maybe it’s time to find another way.

[Nahm]

[blazed]

I don't know how one can be "enlightened" when one is unconscious.

Ask yourself would your "higher self" or "ideal version" of you be spending time arguing on forums consistently, everyday, nearly every thread?

If you answer yes then I suggest you come up with a better ideal version of yourself and not settle for something so petty.

If you answer no, then you're unconcious and at this moment not run by the higher self but the ego mind of ranting, explaining, justifying, counter-aruging, all the things that the ego thrives and ends up controlling the moment.

It's ok to have 1 bad day off and go on a rant, but seriously the same people doing it all the time, that is a mental illness, you're addicted to arguing. Neuroplasticity, repeat something enough times you'll get addicted to it, making it a habit.

Edited June 20, 2018 by blazed

[White]

3 hours ago, blazed said:

I don't know how one can be "enlightened" when one is unconscious.

Ask yourself would your "higher self" or "ideal version" of you be spending time arguing on forums consistently, everyday, nearly every thread?

If you answer no, then you're unconcious and at this moment not run by the higher self but the ego mind of ranting, explaining, justifying, counter-aruging, all the things that the ego thrives and ends up controlling the moment.

It's ok to have 1 bad day off and go on a rant, but seriously the same people doing it all the time, that is a mental illness, you're addicted to arguing.

The pain-body wants to survive, just like every other entity in existence, and it can only survive if it gets you to unconsciously identify with it. It can then rise up, take you over, “become you,” and live through you. It needs to get its “food” through you. It will feed on any experience that resonates with its own kind of energy, anything that creates further pain in whatever form: anger, destructiveness, hatred, grief, emotional drama, violence, and even illness.

So the pain-body, when it has taken you over, will create a situation in your life that reflects back its own energy frequency for it to feed on. Pain can only feed on pain. Pain cannot feed on joy. It finds it quite indigestible. 

Once the pain-body has taken you over, you want more pain. You become a victim or a perpetrator. You want to inflict pain, or you want to suffer pain, or both. There isn’t really much difference between the two. You are not conscious of this, of course, and will vehemently claim that you do not want pain. But look closely and you will find that your thinking and behavior are designed to keep the pain going, for yourself and others. If you were truly conscious of it, the pattern would dissolve, for to want more pain is insanity, and nobody is consciously insane. 

The pain-body, which is the dark shadow cast by the ego, is actually afraid of the light of your consciousness. It is afraid of being found out. Its survival depends on your unconscious identification with it, as well as on your unconscious fear of facing the pain that lives in you. But if you don’t face it, if you don’t bring the light of your consciousness into the pain, you will be forced to relive it again and again. The pain-body may seem to you like a dangerous monster that you cannot bear to look at, but I assure you that it is an insubstantial phantom that cannot prevail against the power of your presence. 

Some spiritual teachings state that all pain is ultimately an illusion, and this is true. The question is: Is it true for you? A mere belief doesn’t make it true. Do you want to experience pain for the rest of your life and keep saying that it is an illusion? Does that free you from the pain? What we are concerned with here is how you can realize this truth — that is, make it real in your own experience. 

So the pain-body doesn’t want you to observe it directly and see it for what it is. The moment you observe it, feel its energy field within you, and take your attention into it, the identification is broken. A higher dimension of consciousness has come in. I call it presence. You are now the witness or the watcher of the pain-body. This means that it cannot use you anymore by pretending to be you, and it can no longer replenish itself through you. You have found your own innermost strength. You have accessed the power of Now

Source: New World Library 

[blazed]

43 minutes ago, White said:

The pain-body wants to survive, just like every other entity in existence, and it can only survive if it gets you to unconsciously identify with it. It can then rise up, take you over, “become you,” and live through you. It needs to get its “food” through you. It will feed on any experience that resonates with its own kind of energy, anything that creates further pain in whatever form: anger, destructiveness, hatred, grief, emotional drama, violence, and even illness.

So the pain-body, when it has taken you over, will create a situation in your life that reflects back its own energy frequency for it to feed on. Pain can only feed on pain. Pain cannot feed on joy. It finds it quite indigestible. 

Once the pain-body has taken you over, you want more pain. You become a victim or a perpetrator. You want to inflict pain, or you want to suffer pain, or both. There isn’t really much difference between the two. You are not conscious of this, of course, and will vehemently claim that you do not want pain. But look closely and you will find that your thinking and behavior are designed to keep the pain going, for yourself and others. If you were truly conscious of it, the pattern would dissolve, for to want more pain is insanity, and nobody is consciously insane. 

The pain-body, which is the dark shadow cast by the ego, is actually afraid of the light of your consciousness. It is afraid of being found out. Its survival depends on your unconscious identification with it, as well as on your unconscious fear of facing the pain that lives in you. But if you don’t face it, if you don’t bring the light of your consciousness into the pain, you will be forced to relive it again and again. The pain-body may seem to you like a dangerous monster that you cannot bear to look at, but I assure you that it is an insubstantial phantom that cannot prevail against the power of your presence. 

Some spiritual teachings state that all pain is ultimately an illusion, and this is true. The question is: Is it true for you? A mere belief doesn’t make it true. Do you want to experience pain for the rest of your life and keep saying that it is an illusion? Does that free you from the pain? What we are concerned with here is how you can realize this truth — that is, make it real in your own experience. 

So the pain-body doesn’t want you to observe it directly and see it for what it is. The moment you observe it, feel its energy field within you, and take your attention into it, the identification is broken. A higher dimension of consciousness has come in. I call it presence. You are now the witness or the watcher of the pain-body. This means that it cannot use you anymore by pretending to be you, and it can no longer replenish itself through you. You have found your own innermost strength. You have accessed the power of Now

Source: New World Library 

I agree.

The hardest part about enligthenment is always maintaining that state.

Falling into unconsciousness is too easy, either you gradually need to rewire your brain to always be at high presence or something needs to click in your brain like a switch that just brings constant presence into your life.

Enlightenment is easy, but I only consider it "real enligthenment" when you are always at that level.

If someone loses it easily and gets into drama as soon as someone pisses in their soup that's not "enligthenment", that some weak sauce enligthenment that you get when everything is going your way and you meditate in some peaceful place.

If someone is always fully selfless not identified with the body and mind, and does not fear death because they are in presence with their higher nature at all times, then I consider them fully enligthened.

One cannot argue with reality when they realise to be reality.

Edited June 20, 2018 by blazed

[White]

@blazed Yes to all of that. But I'll say I don't believe that anyone can be in an enlightened state constantly.  When I say enlightened state I mean that Non dual God head state. I don't believe that's possible and I've heard many a credible teacher say likewise. But the state you're talking about is constant vigilance - and that for me is just the ability to distinguish the true from the false.  

[blazed]

1 minute ago, White said:

@blazed Yes to all of that. But I'll say I don't believe that anyone can be in an enlightened state constantly.  When I say enlightened state I mean that Non dual God head state. I don't believe that's possible and I've heard many a credible teacher say likewise. But the state you're talking about is constant vigilance - and that for me is just the ability to distinguish the true from the false.  

If by god head you mean beyond the mind and all thinking, like a samahdi state, yeah you can't stay there forever whilst you have a human form, in fact it's recommeneded not to cling onto that state either.

But you can be constantly present, like most gurus, Echhart Tolle, Sadhguru, etc.

You can be grounded in the nothingness/emptiness/stillness as the foundation of all things, before you see maya playing very consistently,

At that point you're both the emptiness that never changes, and all the activity present that is always changing.

[White]

2 minutes ago, blazed said:

You can be grounded in the nothingness/emptiness/stillness as the foundation of all things, before you see maya playing very consistently,

Yes. I cant find any disagreement with what you are saying. Yes, a background knowing, stillness from practice, yes, while life is still happening and one is participating. 

[White]

@blazed

Ken Wilber says the states you have permeate your ego and become stages of development for the ego. This fits nicely with what you're saying. Which is what yellow does, it finds the connections between seemingly opposing or fragmented ideas.