Indecisive about whether to learn about Spiral Dynamics or not

[Stevenn]

Hey guys,

so as stated in the title, im indecisive about whether I should actually learn about Spiral Dynamics or not.

While Leo and a lot of the people on the forum seem to regard it as a powerful model for messuring the level of consciousness of a human or a collective - and it may be exactly that, I don't know, I haven't looked into it yet - personally, I think it may be detrimental for my development. That is, because I'm actually quite happy that the labels I throw around at people are decreasing and I'm not putting them into some rigid conceptual frameworks anymore (or at least in a way I don't notice it anymore lol).

So while Spiral Dynamics may be accurate, I think it comes with the danger of putting people in some frameworks again and making them too concrete in the process, which is what I don't really like. This may not be true for people that use this paradigm with a high consciousness, since they are beyond this thing of making concepts too concrete, but for people with an awareness that is still not at that level, the "projecting game" may only get reinforced by such a model, I think, even if the model itself may be great.

Any thoughts on this?

[White]

@Stevenn

There is a distinct difference between labelling a person vs. understanding where they are coming from.

Spiral dynamics has done nothing but open my heart even more down to more understanding, less judgement, more compassion, more tolerance because now I know why people do what they do. 

For me the model has been nothing but beneficial. 

As with every tool, it's in the way one applies that tool that matters. 

[robdl]

Imagine being a white middle-class male and having a black person relate to you through their lens of intellectual concepts and abstractions over what it is to be white, middle-class, or male, or a combination thereof.

Conversely, imagine being a working class black person and having a white person relate to you through their lens of intellectual concepts and abstractions over what it is to be black/have the black experience/be a working class black person. 

Or imagine viewing someone through the concept of what an aquarius or scorpio is and projecting that onto them because of how some of their traits may align.

Can we see how de-personalizing/patronizing it is to view people through projected concepts, through limited static knowledge like this? It's relationship through concept.

As far as I see, spiral dynamics nourishes relationship through image, concept, static knowledge in the very same way --- albeit in a more abstract or sophisticated way. 

We tend to seek to know/understand/peg people down because there's a discomfort/insecurity in the not-knowing.

Ever notice the thought-stories arising when we meet someone new, with very limited information about them?  This is thought seeking security in itself/knowledge/the past.

Thought detests not-knowing, and is always in escape from it.

 

Edited June 19, 2018 by robdl

[Ananta]

4 hours ago, Stevenn said:

Any thoughts on this?

Im not interested in it, at all. I had never heard of it until lately, because of this forum. I half-ass looked it up. I have no desire to learn it anymore then I did. I think it's a finger pointing ego classification system (ie, your green, they're blue, I'm turquoise- look at me). 

 

[White]

@robdl

It's not only good for spotting values in others, but it can also help show you where you are at your own level. There is no other tool quite like it. You will never know what a blue or red thought is in meditation unless you study this system. It's like the interpersonal world has been psychoanalyzed and all the work has been done already for you 

[Faceless]

1 hour ago, robdl said:

Imagine being a white middle-class male and having a black person relate to you through their lens of intellectual concepts and abstractions over what it is to be white, middle-class, or male, or a combination thereof.

Conversely, imagine being a working class black person and having a white person relate to you through their lens of intellectual concepts and abstractions over what it is to be black/have the black experience/be a working class black person. 

Or imagine viewing someone through the concept of what an aquarius or scorpio is and projecting that onto them because of how some of their traits may align.

Can we see how de-personalizing/patronizing it is to view people through projected concepts, through limited static knowledge like this? It's relationship through concept.

As far as I see, spiral dynamics nourishes relationship through image, concept, static knowledge in the very same way --- albeit in a more abstract or sophisticated way. 

We tend to seek to know/understand/peg people down because there's a discomfort/insecurity in the not-knowing.

Ever notice the thought-stories arising when we meet someone new, with very limited information about them?  This is thought seeking security in itself/knowledge/the past.

Thought detests not-knowing, and is always in escape from it.

 

Well said indeed. 

Spot on. Bringing to light how we formulate self images and images of others in accordance to our own particular accumulation of knowledge. 

What a great post @robdl

[Faceless]

The only way to understand another is to understand the conditioned nature of thought. Which means to understand oneself deeply without theory’s, conceptualizations, and philosophical inventions of thought that influence the way in which we observe and understand ourselves.

There is always the inherent limitation in attempting to see what is actual in oursleves and others, when looking through the eyes of the past (experience, knowledge, memory) 

 

We must remeber thought is always old and never new. 

To meet the newness of the now, with that of the old, is a futile attempt to capture that which is limitless with that which is limited. 

The fragment (thought) can never capture that which is whole (the dynamic nature of now) 

Edited June 19, 2018 by Faceless

[Faceless]

1 hour ago, Anna1 said:

I think it's a finger pointing ego classification system (ie, your green, they're blue, I'm turquoise- look at me). 

 

It is quite obvious indeed. All an example of how thought/self measures and compares to maintain a certain level of psychological self affirmation and validation.

Edited June 20, 2018 by Faceless

[Ananta]

6 minutes ago, Faceless said:

It is quite obvious indeed. All an example of how thought/self measures and compares to maintain a certain level of psychological self affirmation and validation.

Yeah, I'm part of the human race, not interested in levels/stages. For fun, only, I'm also a gemini. Lol.

[cirkussmile]

2 hours ago, Anna1 said:

Yeah, I'm part of the human race, not interested in levels/stages. For fun, only, I'm also a gemini. Lol.

Im also gemini! Am I enlightend yet?

[Ananta]

8 minutes ago, cirkussmile said:

Im also gemini! Am I enlightend yet?

I don't know, I'm a gemini, not a psychic. Lol. 

[cirkussmile]

6 minutes ago, Anna1 said:

I don't know, I'm a gemini, not a psychic. Lol. 

Good communcation ?

[Ananta]

14 minutes ago, cirkussmile said:

Good communcation ?

Lol.

[WaterfallMachine]

9 hours ago, robdl said:Imagine being a white middle-class male and having a black person relate to you through their lens of intellectual concepts and abstractions over what it is to be white, middle-class, or male, or a combination thereof.

Conversely, imagine being a working class black person and having a white person relate to you through their lens of intellectual concepts and abstractions over what it is to be black/have the black experience/be a working class black person. 

Or imagine viewing someone through the concept of what an aquarius or scorpio is and projecting that onto them because of how some of their traits may align.

Can we see how de-personalizing/patronizing it is to view people through projected concepts, through limited static knowledge like this? It's relationship through concept.

As far as I see, spiral dynamics nourishes relationship through image, concept, static knowledge in the very same way --- albeit in a more abstract or sophisticated way. 

We tend to seek to know/understand/peg people down because there's a discomfort/insecurity in the not-knowing.

Ever notice the thought-stories arising when we meet someone new, with very limited information about them?  This is thought seeking security in itself/knowledge/the past.

Thought detests not-knowing, and is always in escape from it.

 

Why do you assume we’re stereotyping people solely based on the group they come from? Why can’t you have both an individual and group perspective of yourself? Why not take in both factors?

Statistics gathered based on black discrimination on crimes are useful to know how to prevent it? Studying how the middle class is either widening or narrowing to find a state of wealth equality in a country is useful to know for feedback. Studying the common problems of the working class can allow them to find their way into financial security.

Is studying a group as a whole always harmful to them? We aren’t saying this is exactly how each person in a stage is — but it clearly is a factor. That’s all we ask from you to understand.

[robdl]

9 hours ago, WaterfallMachine said:

Why do you assume we’re stereotyping people solely based on the group they come from? Why can’t you have both an individual and group perspective of yourself? Why not take in both factors?

Statistics gathered based on black discrimination on crimes are useful to know how to prevent it? Studying how the middle class is either widening or narrowing to find a state of wealth equality in a country is useful to know for feedback. Studying the common problems of the working class can allow them to find their way into financial security.

Is studying a group as a whole always harmful to them? We aren’t saying this is exactly how each person in a stage is — but it clearly is a factor. That’s all we ask from you to understand.

Oh yeah, I'm just talking about relationship.  One's direct relationship with another.  I wasn't critiquing using group data to form policy or anything of that nature.

 

Edited June 20, 2018 by robdl