Spiral Dynamics Stage Blue Examples Mega-Thread

[Mondsee]

14 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Technically it is better. But yes, that's a separate problem.

It is better to deal with a science zealot than a religious zealot.

I sometimes doubt this. I have had quite deep conversations with a muslim friend who is incredibly trapped into Islamic dogma, and have had him grasp much better how a piece of garbage in the woods is  God (we were literally walking out in nature, and I used that as an example) than other hyper-scientific and "progressive thinking" friends understand that different religions are all referring to the very same thing, in the same ways that different languages all serve the same purpose of communication. "Oh no no no..." they'll say... "some religions are way worst than others, and by no means are they about the same!!! the only thing that they have in common are the stupid people who follow them"... well, haha there may also be a little bit of truth in that, but we never get passed an evasive response like that because they're literally allergic to anything that gets remotely away from their materialistic rationality. Their minds are just as paradigm locked for the rest of their lives, never to find God.

Edit: the fact alone that I have this muslim friend (and other super religious friends) is something I attribute to the fact that I can understand them. My "scientific" friends are absolutely incapable of this, and thus they will "tolerate" religious people, but they are unable to have an actual close friendship with them, as I can.

Edited February 3, 2020 by Mondsee

[Cocolove]

On 2/1/2020 at 11:19 PM, Derek White said:

Looks like stage blue people forcing Trump to pass these rules. Is there a women in hijab behind him?

Also, I find the inaccurate map on his desk hilarious. 

Christians feeling like victims in USA. And they they say the left wingers are victims. 

 

Yea defenitely the wrong mindset, but should we not let blue kids pray in public schools? 

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Cocolove said:

but should we not let blue kids pray in public schools?

No one is stopping a kid from praying in public school.

That's not the issue. The issue is that those who complain about not being able to pray in public school actually have the hidden agenda to disseminate their favorite religion via public school. They want to use government to promote their religion and indoctrinate kids.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Mondsee said:

I sometimes doubt this. I have had quite deep conversations with a muslim friend who is incredibly trapped into Islamic dogma, and have had him grasp much better how a piece of garbage in the woods is  God (we were literally walking out in nature, and I used that as an example) than other hyper-scientific and "progressive thinking" friends understand that different religions are all referring to the very same thing, in the same ways that different languages all serve the same purpose of communication. "Oh no no no..." they'll say... "some religions are way worst than others, and by no means are they about the same!!! the only thing that they have in common are the stupid people who follow them"... well, haha there may also be a little bit of truth in that, but we never get passed an evasive response like that because they're literally allergic to anything that gets remotely away from their materialistic rationality. Their minds are just as paradigm locked for the rest of their lives, never to find God.

Edit: the fact alone that I have this muslim friend (and other super religious friends) is something I attribute to the fact that I can understand them. My "scientific" friends are absolutely incapable of this, and thus they will "tolerate" religious people, but they are unable to have an actual close friendship with them, as I can.

It seems that way on the surface, but in practice that Muslim is less morally and cognitively developed than an atheist.

Of course there are exceptions. I'm speaking more broadly.

Stage Orange is more developed than Blue. That Muslim has yet to go through the atheist and rationalist stage and in practice he will be a bigger devil.

If he is a stage Green Muslim then he might be above the typical atheist. But stage Green Muslims are a tiny percentage of the population.

[Mondsee]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It seems that way on the surface, but in practice that Muslim is less morally and cognitively developed than an atheist.

Of course there are exceptions. I'm speaking more broadly.

Stage Orange is more developed than Blue. That Muslim has yet to go through the atheist and rationalist stage and in practice he will be a bigger devil.

If he is a stage Green Muslim then he might be above the typical atheist. But stage Green Muslims are a tiny percentage of the population.

A reminder that the higher you are on the Spiral Dynamics stages is not proportional to the closer you are to grasping the Truth. Enlightenment can happen at any stage. I've recently been reading St. Teresa of Avila's Book of Life. That's a blue stage Enlightenment right there. Veeeery blue, and very enlightened. The kid praying may be closer to God than the rational materialist... just to God in the form of Jesus Christ in heaven, but still God, nonetheless.

[Leo Gura]

@Mondsee Even a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut.

Doesn't mean anything.

[Mondsee]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Mondsee Even a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut.

Doesn't mean anything.

My point here is that a certain spiral stage alone won't necessarily keep you away from God. Let's not confuse the spiral dynamics with other types of development (such as Maslow' Hierarchy of Needs) and simple open-mindedness and honesty levels, which IMO explain a much bigger part of this phenomenon.

[remember]

8 hours ago, Mondsee said:

A reminder that the higher you are on the Spiral Dynamics stages is not proportional to the closer you are to grasping the Truth. Enlightenment can happen at any stage. I've recently been reading St. Teresa of Avila's Book of Life. That's a blue stage Enlightenment right there. Veeeery blue, and very enlightened. The kid praying may be closer to God than the rational materialist... just to God in the form of Jesus Christ in heaven, but still God, nonetheless.

that’s true and it is not. also your signature is pointing towards both sides of infinity. remember, the devil is a squirrel. if the squirrel would give up on searching for nuts it would probably still be a rat. we often think we can explain the general through the exceptional but don’t realize that all the exceptional can explain is the exceptional.

even though that’s exactly what is making it so special and beautiful, it is also showing how unexceptional the general is.

or you could also say: even a blind nut sometimes finds a squirrel.

Edited February 4, 2020 by remember

[Leo Gura]

This lady is priceless:

 

[Roy]

22 hours ago, Mondsee said:

My point here is that a certain spiral stage alone won't necessarily keep you away from God. Let's not confuse the spiral dynamics with other types of development (such as Maslow' Hierarchy of Needs) and simple open-mindedness and honesty levels, which IMO explain a much bigger part of this phenomenon.

This is a good point and isn't brought up often enough in the Actualized community -

Spiral Dynamics is such a beautiful model that explains so much, but there seems to be a massive temptation to retreat to the trenches of simplicity by stating, "oh that's stage red this! Oh that person is stage orange going green because of this!" ...... instead of thinking critically and even attempting to generate a more encompassing explanation.

Leo himself is quite guilty of this if you look closely, you'll hear him simply utter only stages somewhat frequently in his videos so passively like it somehow explains everything you need to know about a topic in two words.

Don't get me wrong spiral dynamics is awesome, but it's like less than 1% of all the models and content you could use to explain things.

 

[Revolutionary Think]

13 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

This lady is priceless:

 

Oh that was funny. 

[Leo Gura]

Just want to remind everyone: this thread has a lot of silly and negative examples of Blue because they are flashy, funny, and all-too-easy to find. (I'm guilty of this.) But there are also many healthy and positive examples of Blue.

Don't get the idea that Blue is always idiotic. Without Blue, civilization would collapse.

This too is stage Blue:

 

[fridjonk]

@Leo Gura What if you were to make a separate threads of the positives for each stage. Like "Positive Stage-Blue Examples". 

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, fridjonk said:

@Leo Gura What if you were to make a separate threads of the positives for each stage. Like "Positive Stage-Blue Examples". 

Post 'em here.

Positive and negative are inseparable.

[Leo Gura]

Here's a stage Blue/Orange Christian's politics vs a stage Green Christian's politics:

Quite illuminating how they talk past one another.

[Sempiternity]

Here in Seattle, which is a mostly Stage Green city, one of the most beloved landmarks is St. Mark's Cathedral. Even though they hold regular Christian Episcopal Church sermons, they also strive to be a figurehead that represents all peoples of the community. They hold LGBTQ meetings regularly. They've had regular Yoga classes held in the main hall. They hold major concerts, throw huge celebration events, and let people film music videos. Every Sunday night at 9:30pm they have Gregorian choir singing for about an hour, followed by a solo on a two-story Organ. The pubic is welcome to come as the are, sit anywhere you like, bring pillows, blankets or have a picnic if you like. It's all so extremely informal. Great place to bring dates. Every Green person I know here loves this church and goes there often, not to worship (obviously), but to celebrate life and community. Not sure if this is an example of positive Stage Blue, or religious Stage Green church. Is that possible? 

[Apparition of Jack]

@Jed Vassallo It could be Blue/Green, but honestly that just sounds like more Green using imagery that is more traditionally associated with Blue. There's no reason why a cathedral can't be home to Code Green yoga lessons and LGBT meetings, other than a lack of popular imagination linking the two.

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Keyhole said:

@Leo Gura I wonder if you perhaps maybe underestimate folks who are lower on the SD model's ability to sense that disconnect in communication.  I can be in my most egotistical state and still in the back of my mind see that there is something that is not integrated.  I imagine most people can sense this to some degree, even if they choose to sit with beliefs or act from a lower consciousness framework.

What do you think?

Do you think people are that obtuse, that they can't see it at all?

That said, the stage blue/orange man seems genuinely baffled by green's perspective.

Yes, people are that obtuse. You can see it because you are probably exceptionally conscious and developed.

Most people are very closedminded and see the world in black/white, I'm-right/you're-wrong.

Tucker Carlson is quite obtuse. His worldview does not account for relativity or multiple perspectives.

Or course Cornel West is much more able to understand Tucker than Tucker is able to understand him. Cornel West is a world class intellect. Tucker Carlson is an ideological hack.

[Matt23]

Wasn't Buttigieg involved in some pretty unethical, racist, and illegal dealings with getting the police department in his hometown to be all white cops?  

If so, this kinda baffles me if he's also gay...  I'm imagining, if he's racist and involved with those types of people and going to those extremes (I think TYT did a report on the scams/fraud or whatever it was) for racist values, I just don't see how he could be openly gay in that environment and have supporters.

I guess I see the gay identity and racist identity as not being compatible... yeah, within his person I could see it, but socially?  ... I dunno.

[remember]

@Matt23 well gay and conservative is not really excluding each other. that is if a gay person was indoctrinated by blue maybe in very loving way - it’s not that the fact that someone is gay changes their upbringing or love for what they learned to love in their family home. gay men are sometimes very correct and love blue things as they love aspects of structure and order and sophistication about it, or they just love the indoctrination part and giving authority to people they worship  - that can also sometimes mean that a gay person is conservative or even a right winger. 

blue these days is sometimes openminded for exceptions especially if they still conform and support the organisation/ideals blue is bound to, it mimikris openmindedness. 

of course this is not all on buttigiegs shoulders, it’s a phenomenon that especially showed in more conservative parties - german afd has a female member example where life and ideology are so counterintuitive to each other that it’s a mystery how exactly that works. maybe because it’s more accepted for women in that party.

it works exactly the same way as it works for a person from the left to be preoccupied about what being gay means or putting the fact that someone is gay for or against what people then are politically doing. political correctness is not a visa to be politically incorrect...you see where the fact that he is gay can lead to in a seemingly logical argumentation?

Edited February 6, 2020 by remember