Alan Watts- Why the urge to improve yourself?

[lmfao]

Just wanted to share this video. The speaker here, Alan Watts, digs deep to a fundamental level on the topic of what it means to "improve yourself". He talks about how the notion of improving yourself is a sham. 

To anyone interested in personal improvement I think it's a wonderful video. 

 

Edited June 18, 2018 by lmfao

[Leo Gura]

Maybe so you don't die of excess alcohol consumption?

[robdl]

improving yourself

striving

desiring

ambition

effort

will

volition.

All movements of self/thought/psychological time/escape from what-is.  (all one and the same thing.)

Thought is always in a movement of escape from what-is, its very nature, and wanting to "improve yourself" is another manifestation of that.

I didn't watch the video but is this what Alan Watts is pointing to?

Edited June 18, 2018 by robdl

[Faceless]

20 minutes ago, robdl said:

improving yourself

striving

desiring

ambition

effort

will

volition.

All movements of self/thought/psychological time/escape from what-is.  (all one and the same thing.)

Thought is always in a movement of escape from what-is, and wanting to "improve yourself" is another manifestation of that.

I didn't watch the video but is this what Alan Watts is pointing to?

Bingo. 

Allan watts pointing out all the contradiction in self improvement. 

Only in the absence of all that is there love/compassion. 

Edited June 18, 2018 by Faceless

[lmfao]

@Leo Gura I felt that burn lol. But you should listen to that talk if you haven't. Its good stuff. 

Edited June 18, 2018 by lmfao

[lmfao]

@robdl Yes. He states that self improvement is a matter of getting out of your own way. One way to frame this predicament is to say that the reason you aren't a better person is because you want to be a better person. Although, this way of framing things can be misleading to people who haven't experienced high consciousness states before. 

Edited June 18, 2018 by lmfao

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, lmfao said:

@Leo Gura I felt that burn lol. But you should listen to that talk if you haven't. Its good stuff. 

I understand the idea. There is nothing to improve from the Absolute perspective. You're already perfect.

But this is not mutually exclusive with personal development. You can and should do both. You don't need to be "flawed" in order to grow, learn, and evolve your lifestyle and modes of behavior.

You can be a perfect human being, and still not know how to play the piano, and then decide to learn to play master piano. Wanting to learn to play master piano is not egotism, unless you make it such.

[Erlend K]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Maybe so you don't die of excess alcohol consumption?

touché?

[robdl]

26 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I understand the idea. There is nothing to improve from the Absolute perspective. You're already perfect.

 

But can this be understood by seeing the nature of thought itself and its perpetual escape from what-is through such forms as desire, fear, ambition, volition, self-improvement, and so on? 

To not realize this is the nature of thought itself, thought/self may indulge in a concept of the Absolute and existing perfection, yet continue with the movement of self-improvement.

Edited June 18, 2018 by robdl

[Faceless]

What he means is to improve yourself psychologically is futile. 

Psychological growth is sham. 

Any attempt to use thought to improve the psyche only causes further contradiction, conflict, and disorder.  To bring in thought (the cause of psychological insecurity/disorder) to end psychological insecurity/disorder is futile.

In this he was right. Although this is easier said than done. 

This is where choiceless passivity (the cessation of positve and negative action as the self) is essential. 

 

Edited June 19, 2018 by Faceless

[kieranperez]

Kudos to @Leo Gura for this interview with Peter Ralston

 

[molosku]

Improving yourself is a sham is a sham. 

[Erlend K]

12 hours ago, Faceless said:

What he means is to improve yourself psychologically is futile. 

Psychological growth is sham. 

Any attempt to use thought to improve the psyche only causes further contradiction, conflict, and disorder.  To bring in thought (the cause of psychological insecurity/disorder) to end psychological insecurity/disorder is futile.

In this he was right. Although this is easier said than done. 

This is where choiceless passivity (the cessation of positve and negative action as the self) is essential. 

 

This is just nonsense. Im not sure if you are just trolling, or if you honestly believe this. 

[Faceless]

16 hours ago, robdl said:

But can this be understood by seeing the nature of thought itself and its perpetual escape from what-is through such forms as desire, fear, ambition, volition, self-improvement, and so on? 

To not realize this is the nature of thought itself, thought/self may indulge in a concept of the Absolute and existing perfection, yet continue with the movement of self-improvement.

Yes, thought will cling to abstraction and attribute to itself that it has done otherwise. In that illusion one will continue to seek security in the illusion of self improvement. To end the illusory quest of the impermanent self seeking permanence ceases to act. In this one will see the falsity of cultivating psychological growth. And therefore will actually be much more psychologically stable. In fact when all the finite energy one wasted on cultivating psychological growth wnds, one will bring about infinite energy to live a holy (whole) life. 

 

Dont get me wrong there is nothing wrong with improving ones life. But I’m speaking psychologically; the attempt to cultivate growth in order to capture and maintain psychological security. This will only nourish psychological insecurity as all that is a movement of fear. To act in any way in accordance to fear all action will be contradictory, conflictual, divisive, and one hell of way to waste a life. 

@robdl you are one sharp dude. Thanks for your great questions and wisdom. 

Edited June 19, 2018 by Faceless

[White]

16 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

There is nothing to improve from the Absolute perspective. You're already perfect.

That is not the perspective of the absolute. 

The perspective of the absolute is everyone's essence is the same source.

In fact, from the perspective of the absolute you actually see how bad the situation is, because you understand first hand how fucking deluded we all are!

Edited June 19, 2018 by White

[robdl]

1 hour ago, Faceless said:

Dont get me wrong there is nothing wrong with improving ones life. But I’m speaking psychologically; the attempt to cultivate growth in order to capture and maintain psychological security. This will only nourish psychological insecurity as all that is a movement of fear. To act in any way in accordance to fear all action will be contradictory, conflictual, divisive, and one hell of way to waste a life.

Indeed -- I think we need to distinguish (and point out some potential similarities as well) between the compulsive, conflicting desire to self-improve, which can be happening hour-to-hour, moment-to-moment, in the movement of thought/self, and the more macro, long-term outward activity of improving at a particular activity, hobby, etc.

Before we can appreciate/accept the latter, I think we need to have an intimate understanding of the former, so that the latter is a reflection of sanity, intelligence --- not a reflection (and perpetuation) of delusion, self-deception.

Thought/self loves to step in and agree with the notion of self-improvement compulsion being neurotic, but long-term self-improvement goals being okay --- but this can be a way of thought-self rationalizing/self-protecting/seeking security in its own movement/seeking security in psychological time (all one and the same movement).

It's astonishing when one goes into it --- the radical profundity of it.

 

Edited June 19, 2018 by robdl

[Faceless]

45 minutes ago, robdl said:

Before we can appreciate/accept the latter, I think we need to have an intimate understanding of the former, so that the latter is a reflection of sanity, intelligence --- not a reflection (and perpetuation) of delusion, self-deception.

 

Of course... 

In the total and holistic understanding of disorder is born a direct action of order. 

We generally seek answers to psychological problems instead of understanding problems. We want a quick psychological fix. 

 

To escape the fact of disorder of the self and seek an idea (abstraction) of order “self improvement” is to attempt to create order out of already existing disorder. If we look at this very carefully that will see that order can never be cultivated from disorder. 

 

So it’s about facing and understanding the disorder(the fact)

Not escaping disorder to (the idea) of order. 

To move away from the fact is to avoid the fact. 

 

This is what thought does, it resists (what is) actually happening and invents that which brings about psychological security. A defensive/reactionary movement of self. 

But any movement away from what is implies an escape from fear. To escape fear nourishes fear. Where there is fear illusion, delusion, self deception will continue to manifest insecurity and therefore disorder. 

Edited June 19, 2018 by Faceless

[robdl]

53 minutes ago, Faceless said:

But any movement away from what is implies an escape from fear. To escape fear nourishes fear. Where there is fear illusion, delusion, self deception will continue to manifest insecurity and therefore disorder. 

As you've said and it can be observed --- the cause is the effect and the effect is the cause.  Thought seeks security in itself.  Fear seeks security in itself. Self-deception perpetuates. It's all saying the same thing.   Thought separates, classifies, and makes distinctions with a myriad of terms (fear, thought, self, insecurity, time, etc.), by its very nature, but in essence one and the same mechanism: movement of self-perpetuating thought.

Edited June 19, 2018 by robdl