Isn't science in stage blue?

[electroBeam]

Why is science in stage orange?

A lot of scientists I know actually act very similar to stage bluians. The treat science as the one and only absolute truth to the world. They treat their mathematic social constructs as if its the absolute truth. They also are very disciplined in their scientific agenda, and get scared when you step out of their frameworks. A good example of this is chaos theory. To a lot of scientists, logic is their god, and the scientific method is their 10 commandments.

Sure, scientists are much less closed minded to Bluians, but really they have a lot in common. How is this more similar to stage orange?

[Leo Gura]

Science, rationalism, pragmatism, materialism, and secularism is the next stage.

Of course science has dogmas and group-think in it, but significantly less so than traditional religion. Science does strongly emphasize empirical validation and skepticism. Science is more willing to evolve its web of beliefs. A good scientist is supposed to be openminded and curious and non-ideological in a way that runs counter to strict obedience to scriptures and father figures. Science requires some degree of rebelliousness.

Stage Orange is more independent-minded and materialistic. Less concerned with the afterlife. That's science and business.

[Dovahkiin]

Can’t anything be used as a stage blue accessory once it’s held as an ideology or a paradigm pointing toward absolute truth?

 

It does seem orange is “absolutist” with respect to rationality and materialism, no?

 

In a similar vein, doesn’t the stage blue video ignore the potential for blue in non-religious contexts by focusing so heavily on Christian and Muslim examples of blue? It seemed like conflating religion with absolutism in general could cause you to call a lot of blue thinkers green thinkers.

 

Example: radical feminism and its opponents. While the genuinely striving for equality brand of feminism seems green, isn’t the case of someone who adopts it as core to their identity and holds patriarchy theory as a dogma pretty blue? Isn’t the war between people like this and MRAs/Manosphere people a non-religious manifestation of blue vs. blue? Think Jordan Peterson vs Cathy Newman.

 

Thanks for the video anyhow @Leo Gura. The initial spiral dynamics video was one of your most instructive for me, so looking forward to the upcoming elaboration videos. 

[Hotaka]

I would say that science itself is yellow as it as a medium is absolute truth, because of course absolute truth is empirical, but cannot be manifested outside of empiricism into theory, immediately when you place it into theory and try to tie it together hoping there is a conclusion you will have a snake come out of it into society and ready to receive self confirmation. It is yellow because it is the true medium into which perspectives can be absolute and stand alone without need of an observer, you can have a truth on paper, but you cannot make a conclusion from it, yet your data is what it is. If we could have a matrix that is purely observational one could use science to look at statistical and meteorological factors and values and their manifestation in empirical reality, which is still empirical, and cannot be translated outside of this unless applied effectively to measure again, or taken note of as an anchor point (a billboard or sign or traffic light for you to use to orient yourself). Then here we see that science is useful in it's own domain but cannot be taken out of it, when you are meditating and dealing with sensations you are still doing it, you are using it, it is called analytical meditation in buddhism, and you use it to analyse your state over a question for eg how much suffering has my ignorance caused me and is still causing me today? If you are still 100% you have full objectivity, no error rate as long as your scale is right and correct and you are measuring against the one thing. The one thing you measure against is the swivel upon which your consciousness turns which is zero, which in spirituality means complete equanimity. Here there is no movement at all. The business of science is orange (hypothesis is business). The medium of science is the sage. The sage is yellow, but he is not beyond philosophy yet, as that would be turquoise.

p.s. I know nothing of spiral dynamics, I am probably orange attempting to say that it is knowing lots of things and trying to push my agenda on you, so I am not scientific. Right now a scientist could convince me that if I make a less self centered post, and be more honest, I will feel more energy in my body and have a clearer mind with more equanimity in my emotions and self overall. Scientific.

[Leo Gura]

@Dovahkiin Nah... the ideological battles you see between feminism and the men's right movement is mostly a battle between Green and Orange, not Blue. That's a secular battle.

Absolutism doesn't have to be about God and religion, but it usually is.

Stubbornness and closedmindedness is not exclusive to Blue. It tends to manifest all along the Spiral in various forms.

Green people can be fairly ideological about equality and civil rights issues. For example, Green Peace or PETA. That doesn't make them Blue. They are solid Green. Green, like any stage, can get dysfunctional at its extremes.

The key difference between Blue and Green is that Green is against rigid hierarchies and focused on equality, building human bonds, sharing feelings. Blue is focused more on law and order and tradition.

[Dovahkiin]

@Leo Gura making the green / blue distinction on the lines of attitude toward hierarchy, and pointing out that closed mindedness can still exist at Green, does make sense I guess and jives with my knowledge graph / web of beliefs.

 

My only problem is that I can think of a lot of examples from my personal life, family and friends as well as public figures (I think the Cathy Newman example still applies) of people who are extremely passionate about a “Green” cause, but really don’t seem to have integrated what’s supposed to precede Green, eg rationality or any sort of orange phase. PETA is a good example of what I’m talking about. I’ve heard things from their former employees that sound practically red. How can someone be green but not have transcended former stages? It seems like more than just the trappings or dysfunction included in green.

 

I’m guessing my confusion is partly not appreciating that people can be spread across colors, and also partly the remnants of orange in me projecting stuff onto green. For whatever reason it’s been something my mind’s been stuck on since even before this blue video, so thanks for the follow up.

[Guest Quanty]

Science did not discover color yet  Because cannot prove the source of color objectively hahaha.