How can you tell if you’re enlightened?

[WaterfallMachine]

I remember another member here posted with the same question, but was confused about the more moral side of enlightenment. Enlightenment doesn’t mean you’re a good person — yes, I know that — what I do like to know is what enlightenment might mean about the truth and knowledge you gain.

How much can these people know? What kind of things do they understand better? I mean, I know they won’t know everything about life, but it sure does seem to help. I’ve read so much of Leo’s recommended books and looked for some of my own choices, and practiced self inquiry repeatedly as I go through life for a year— but I still sense some attachment left to my ego.

Why is enlightenment something that can be deepened? I remember in Leo’s video abour Zen devils that enlightened people can be even more enlightened than they already are. What does that mean? Isn’t enlightenment already the final stage to spirituality? How come there can be more? What makes you advanced enough to be called enlightened?

How can Leo tell he’s not enlightened? How can anyone tell they’re not enlightened?

Anyone???

Edited June 11, 2018 by WaterfallMachine

[Malelekakis]

You can't miss it ?

[WaterfallMachine]

7 minutes ago, Malelekakis said:

You can't miss it ?

???

[WaterfallMachine]

4 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Every Perspective has a different concept of Enlightenment.  From my point of view the essential ingredient of being Enlightened is knowing how to separate thought-stories from awareness, and then embodying all the consequences of that.

I have a similar understanding to what enlightenment might mean. Though, in everyday life, wouldn't there be always new thought stories to shift through as new events and ideas come forth in life? Hence the idea of enlightenment being something you can deepen? So what is the point of calling someone enlightened when according to this defintion, there's always more to find out? What's the line where someone is aware enough to be called an enlightened person?

Edited June 11, 2018 by WaterfallMachine

[WaterfallMachine]

8 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Existential Truth is not deepened.  What is deepened is the Conceptual Understanding — the Ego of thought-stories that each Perspective clings to.

Then what exactly is meant by a "deepening of enlightenment experiences?" If it was just a deepening of conceptual understanding, then we'd just call it learning a philosophy. But it's not.

[Ether]

Enlightenment is the absence of all suffering, your attaintement of Buddhahood and extreme happiness and inner peace.

How can you miss that? ????

[Rilles]

you wake up in a diaper and a beard

[WaterfallMachine]

2 minutes ago, Ether said:

Enlightenment is the absence of all suffering, your attaintement of Buddhahood and extreme happiness and inner peace.

How can you miss that? ????

Have you seen some of Leo's videos on enlightenment? And some of his recommended books on the topic? Enlightenment is not absolute happiness, but it changes your relationship towards negative emotions to be more accepting of them.

I was asking about the more truth centered aspects of enlightenment, not the emotional.

[Ether]

2 minutes ago, WaterfallMachine said:

Have you seen some of Leo's videos on enlightenment? And some of his recommended books on the topic? Enlightenment is not absolute happiness, but it changes your relationship towards negative emotions to be more accepting of them.

I was asking about the more truth centered aspects of enlightenment, not the emotional.

Yes, it is. Well, different people have different definitions but that was how I was taught and what im trying to attain.

Well, I could tell you the truth but you wouldnt know if it was the truth or not ?

[WaterfallMachine]

10 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Enlightenment is about discovering Existential Truth, and then creating systems to change systems in a Perspective’s Conceptual Understanding — and then the Perspective embodying the results of the synergy of BE-ing Existential Truth PLUS their evolving Conceptual Understanding over time.  That’s the process of Enlightenment.

So to clarify how I understand it : Enlightenment is the interplay of how we gain insight from existential truth to add into the conceptual and practical experience of our everyday lives. We learn things we know in life by understanding how we don't know -- by understanding the absolute nothingness of Truth. Or can enlightenment simply be done for the sake of existential truth itself? Does it even require to?

6 minutes ago, Ether said:

Yes, it is. Well, different people have different definitions but that was how I was taught and what im trying to attain.

Well, I could tell you the truth but you wouldnt know if it was the truth or not ?

Well, I could see where you're coming from. Enlightenment doesn't create absolute happiness, but it sure does help a lot for that -- you know, once you get pass some of those  terrible "Dark Night" stages. Feel free to tell me what you think the truth is so I can check it for myself.

I find very little belief in the benefit of absolute happiness though. We need some negative emotions sometimes. With no fear, we'd be doing reckless things and eventually will wind up killing ourselves in some accident. With no anger, we're not willing to stand up for ourselves when someone is purposely harming us. With no sadness, we won't understand how wonderful it means to gain something valuable without feeling something's loss -- no need for reflection on why we've lost something, because we feel no need to gain something valuable back.

More frequent happiness is good. Complete happiness? Nah.

Edited June 11, 2018 by WaterfallMachine

[Ether]

@WaterfallMachine Not true. I feel pretty calm and I stand up for myself all the time when I dont like how people are treating me. But you dont know that unless you go through my experiences. But trust me, you dont become passive UNLESS you choose to.

Just choose any Noah Elkrief video on his youtube page and watch and pay attention. He has a lot of them ?

[WaterfallMachine]

5 minutes ago, Ether said:

@WaterfallMachine Not true. I feel pretty calm and I stand up for myself all the time when I dont like how people are treating me. But you dont know that unless you go through my experiences. But trust me, you dont become passive UNLESS you choose to.

Just choose any Noah Elkrief video on his youtube page and watch and pay attention. He has a lot of them ?

Negative emotions don't always mean a lack of calmness. Anger can feel less aggressive and impulsive, but can also feel empowering and brave. Think of how many human rights' movement utilized their anger to stand up for themselves or others -- many without violence.

The thing unique about negative emotions is that it's a signal for something externally wrong happening, and that you aren't doing anything about it. So it's much easier to not feel strong anger when you can just casually stand up for yourself. 

Edited June 11, 2018 by WaterfallMachine

[Ether]

@WaterfallMachine No, anger doesnt mean there is something wrong happening, its is ONLY BELIEVING that something wrong is happening.

For example, your girlfriend leaves your house at night without warning, you might feel extremely angry at her because you think she is cheating, so in that moment you are angry and you think you have a justification but what If you simply had no food and went to buy you some.

See? Only because you believe something is wrong, doesnt mean it is.

[Dogsbestfriend]

Believe emotions themselves are rarely negative, it's in relation to what that you are feeling them when they are 'negative' or not. It's completely normal to feel sadness about losing someone, nor would I want to stop that feeling when it's appropriate as it's part of processing what's happened.

I also don't think enlightenment is pure happiness. I do experience various levels of bliss when meditating now, which I assume are more intense when you are fully enlightened? I know the definition of bliss is perfect happiness, but it feels different and don't have another word.. bliss for me feels incredibly 'good' but also.. colder/calmer and sometimes accompanied by tingling sensations.

[Guest Quanty]

One simply knows. Can be conceptualized? No

Can be demonstrated in practice? No, and Yes

But there is the possibility to initiate the unawakened and experience for him/her selves. 

Take this: Enlightenment is the full healing of the body/mind, better homeostasis/harmony as you were born (because we are born as a seed conditioned by the mother/father and the ancestral blueprint). So if you had a condition or injury, they can be cured. Even Cancer or Aids. 

 

[WaterfallMachine]

3 minutes ago, Ether said:

@WaterfallMachine No, anger doesnt mean there is something wrong happening, its is ONLY BELIEVING that something wrong is happening.

For example, your girlfriend leaves your house at night without warning, you might feel extremely angry at her because you think she is cheating, so in that moment you are angry and you think you have a justification but what If you simply had no food and went to buy you some.

See? Only because you believe something is wrong, doesnt mean it is.

Imagine a scenario where she is actually cheating. I come home and find her having sex with another guy. Now is this a false scenario?

Better yet, imagine a person putting a gun to your head or your family. Now is a good time to get angry and call the police or use self defense.

Edited June 11, 2018 by WaterfallMachine

[Ether]

@WaterfallMachine Do you really need to be angry to defend yourself? Do you need to be fearful to not commit a crime? Do you need to be bored to do a stimulating activity? Do you need to be starving to eat?

[WaterfallMachine]

1 minute ago, Ether said:

@WaterfallMachine Do you really need to be angry to defend yourself? Do you need to be fearful to not commit a crime? Do you need to be bored to do a stimulating activity? Do you need to be starving to eat?

Alexithymia is a disorder caused by trauma or a genetic difference. It's when a person cannot correctly identify their emotions, and sufferers often find that not being able to identify "negative" emotions cause a lot of baggage in life. The Adverse Childhood Experiences studies show that suppressing these emotions causes diseases and illnesses later in life from not releasing them. This, as well as the inability to change change negative events from their lives by not realizing how they're wrong.

I should know. I've been diagnosed with PTSD before and had Alexithymia myself.

[Ether]

@WaterfallMachine Well, Im sorry you suffer from that, I wish I could take it away from you but I cant. You got to do it. Grab the world by its balls  

[WaterfallMachine]

@Quanty @Etagnwo @Joseph Maynor

Thanks for these insights. I'll ponder on them and see for myself.

@Ether

It's alright. I've been getting a lot better these days now since I'm getting a lot of help. I think I'm feeling some sort of conistent happiness for the first time in years. Best of luck to you.

Edited June 11, 2018 by WaterfallMachine