Why bother with theory ?

[furashido]

@Pernani Even though there have been individuals throughout human history who have been able to do it without any theory, this is not something anyone can do. The theory is there to make it easier to grasp for those who are able to receive the knowledge. 

You don't have to understand every thing you read or hear, and some concepts take years to grasp. But the more theory you are exposed to, the more likely it is for you to get it. Most times you just take away what you need at that moment, and thats fine. 

Edited June 11, 2018 by furashido

[Pernani]

So many inisghtful replies to digest in this thread <3 thank you all for your help, since I'm pretty much still a noob I think I can put some theory into good use but eventually, like everything else I'm gonna have to find the proper balance for me

[Leo Gura]

You are never going to succeed in this path without high quality theory. It's just full of too many traps, one of which is too much theory, another one of which is too little theory.

[Pernani]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

You are never going to succeed in this path without high quality theory. It's just full of too many traps, one of which is too much theory, another one of which is too little theory.

I felt that way too but I didn't wanna delude myself and avoid taking action, you better keep them videos coming then 

[Faceless]

What does theory have to do with it? 

Why does one assume theory is important? 

[nick96]

You need a minimum on theory to begin doing the work. 

When you know enough , then you can begin doing the experiential work and avoid unnecessary distraction with too much intellectual knowledge.

At this point of my work I feel I need almost no more theory. I still need help and guidance in practical physical exercises though , but I would not call this theory.

[robdl]

What if the theory that one learns also includes the notion that the map isn't the territory, and that the intellect serves as an obstacle?  This is self-undermining theory, so it's not conventional theory.

[robdl]

Theory that nourishes the movement of self/meditator/thinker = bad theory.

Theory that undermines or brings awareness to the movement of self/meditator/thinker = good theory.

Good theory should undermine the notion of the "questioner," not give answers to questions (thereby reinforcing the "questioner"/duality).  Good theory negates, and starves the "questioner" of answers, concepts, and beliefs.

This is how you can get a lot of theory from a quality teacher, and in that theory, you'll have no direction to go in, no technique to employ or positive action to engage in, and nothing/no-thing to do.  It's theory that almost leaves no trace behind; leaves as little room as possible for self-deception.

 

Edited June 11, 2018 by robdl

[Faceless]

26 minutes ago, robdl said:

Theory that nourishes the movement of self/meditator/thinker = bad theory.

 

Doesn’t all “theory” imply the same movement of self? 

26 minutes ago, robdl said:

Theory that undermines or brings awareness to the movement of self/meditator/thinker = good theory.

Does theory lead to anything else but abstraction. If one approaches anything as an entity who accumulates theory, doesn’t that imply that the movement of duality is only being nourished more? 

26 minutes ago, robdl said:

Good theory should undermine the notion of the "questioner," not give answers to questions (thereby reinforcing the "questioner").  Good theory negates, and starves the "questioner" of answers, concepts, and beliefs.

If we continue to inquire into abstractions does this not perpetuate the questioner. 

Can theory negate, or do facts (what is) only have the power to do so? 

Do we see that to end the continuity of the i all theory/abstraction/time must cease. 

Do we see the fact of this??

Is it a seeing the fact in ourselves as opposed to a theory/abstraction that actually sets ‘us’ free?

Edited June 11, 2018 by Faceless

[Faceless]

Great questions @robdl

we have to remember that the mechanism that has the capacity to accumulate theory is the very preventing factor that prevents timeless union.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Faceless

[robdl]

35 minutes ago, Faceless said:

Doesn’t all “theory” imply the same movement of self? 

Does theory lead to anything else but abstraction. If one approaches anything as an entity who accumulates theory, doesn’t that imply that the movement of duality is only being nourished more? 

If we continue to inquire into abstractions does this not perpetuate the questioner. 

Can theory negate, or do facts (what is) only have the power to do so? 

Do we see that to end the continuity of the i all theory/abstraction/time must cease. 

Do we see the fact of this??

Is it a seeing the fact in ourselves as opposed to a theory/abstraction that actually sets ‘us’ free?

Yeah, it's seeing the fact itself that ultimately sets us free, not the theory/abstractions --- abstractions do perpetuate the questioner/abstraction collector.  But can theory --- negating theory that questions the existence of self --- serve as a stepping stone or starting point before seeing the fact takes place?   How does one start with facts, unless they spontaneously arise?  I know that a stepping stone or starting point implies time/the movement of self, but is this not a necessary concession?

Edited June 11, 2018 by robdl

[Faceless]

Remeber what I said about if the accumulated content/movement (memory/experience/knowledge) ‘self’ is observing then the fact will not be seen? 

 

To get involved with theory/abstraction is to resist the fact in oneself. This fact can not be seen until the holistic insight (an Insight that is whole and not a movement of fragmentation, thought, ceases. 

 

To me it’s only in understanding the fact in ones own inward movement without abstraction that there is actual understanding of the fact. 

This is refered to as choicless awareness. No positve or negativitie movement/action of thought/self. 

 

Look up choiceless awareness

 

Edited June 11, 2018 by Faceless

[robdl]

20 minutes ago, Faceless said:

Remeber what I said about if the accumulated content/movement (memory/experience/knowledge) ‘self’ is observing then the fact will not be seen? 

 

To get involved with theory/abstraction is to resist the fact in oneself. This fact can not be seen until the holistic insight (an Insight that is whole and not a movement of fragmentation, thought, ceases. 

 

To me it’s only in understanding the fact in ones own inward movement without abstraction that there is actual understanding of the fact. 

This is refered to as choicless awareness. No positve or negativitie movement/action of thought/self. 

 

Look up choiceless awareness

 

But maybe we need to define what "theory" is.  If you're giving advice on the nature of self, observing without the observer, the need to understand the fact in one's own inward movement, etc. -- this is arguably "theory," at least until one directly realizes it (i.e. me).   Theory generally being a set of ideas to explain something.  But perhaps theory is not an apt term for the guidance you give.  What would you call it?

Edited June 11, 2018 by robdl

[Faceless]

Sure all that I talk about about the self must be seen for ones self. That’s the issue. We can’t look at oursleves without the burden of.....

Theory

A supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained.

 

 As in, hypothesis, thesis, conjecture, supposition, speculation, postulation, postulate, proposition, premise, surmise, assumption, presupposition; More

Edited June 11, 2018 by Faceless

[Faceless]

I’m no guide. I share with others who are interested. And they share with me. 

Edited June 11, 2018 by Faceless

[Ananta]

Prior to Self-realization we think of ourselves as just a person and not "ever present awareness",  we are ignorant of our true nature. We have an ignorance problem, because we are always already awareness, but we don't know it. To remove this ignorance, we need knowledge, specifically "Self-knowledge" wielded by a teacher.

Yes, of course there are practices, but without the theory laying it all out, one would remain ignorant. Sure, there may be an exception here and there (ie, Jesus, buddha), that didn't require any theory, except their own Self-inquiry.

So, you are already awareness, but you don't know this, aren't convinced or don't know what that means, therefore you need a combination of theory AND practice to gain liberation from experience and an understanding of your true nature, as awareness.

 

 

 

Edited June 12, 2018 by Anna1

[Ether]

20 hours ago, Faceless said:

What does theory have to do with it? 

Why does one assume theory is important? 

It means 0.

[Faceless]

1 hour ago, Ether said:

It means 0.

Yep 

Theory leads to illusion/self deception. 

I think one one should start by understanding ones own beliefs ( conclusions, theory’s, and so on. Not to hold to any of that. 

Start and stay with what is. Don’t invent with ones imagination as a means to answering certain questions. 

This all implies thought has created its own fantasy and seeks security in it. Classic movement of the conditioned consciousness. 

[Faceless]

Some are unaware that they are in a dance with there own psychological shadow. 

This shadow is very sneaky indeed. 

Edited June 12, 2018 by Faceless