Path to enlightenment don't have to be painful

[Salvijus]

Last Leo's video on blog was quite demotivating. No? 

I don't know about others but for me spirituality and doing self-enquiry was always a joy. Even after three years of nonstop looking it never became boring or painful or whatever.

Excpesially now every day is incresingly more joyful and happy.

How's everbody else feeling on this? 

 

[Dino D]

for me its almost only pain, depression, anxiety, insomnia and side effects... 20 minutes in average of nice states in three months-more or less, (ps. I'm on the path for 3 years) the only thing good about is i get more sharpminded and smarter... I notice and understand much more ,,things" in general... my english improved from studying this stuff and from trying to express my self in english heh

[Salvijus]

@Dino D somehow I feel more happy for you then sorry what meditation do you do?

Edited June 9, 2018 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

37 minutes ago, now is forever said:

i think that's what happened to leo at that point. but isn't it strong to show it?

I have my own theory of what happened to leo. Short version: he went too high without building a solid foundation first and broke. If you want to meditate for 30days you should prepare yourself mentaly, pshysicaly, energeticaly. You can't just jump Into it like crazy

[Truth Addict]

My emotions were never better than now, and I'm almost a year in spirituality.

But in comparison, some other facets of my life deteriorated, of course due to me focusing too much on emotions (which I made huge progress on), and now I need to work harder to get back on my feet. Let's get to work!

Maybe I made a mistake, maybe I should have balanced between everything. However, I'm still happy and I don't reject it. ?

[Dino D]

24 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

@Dino D somehow I feel more happy for you then sorry what meditation do you do?

I did a lot of wim hof method, and what i would call just ,,normal" meditation... now i backed off a lot because of the insomnia that i finnaly got a little bit under controll... the depression and anxiety is not that bad in general I'm ok

[Isaac Ben]

46 minutes ago, Dino D said:

for me its almost only pain, depression, anxiety, insomnia and side effects... 20 minutes in average of nice states in three months-more or less, (ps. I'm on the path for 3 years) the only thing good about is i get more sharpminded and smarter... I notice and understand much more ,,things" in general... my english improved from studying this stuff and from trying to express my self in english heh

In my point of view, this path shouldn't be like you described. Those symptoms (although I occasionally get them myself) are a sign of a struggling ego, An ego trying to get somewhere.
Well guess what? It doesn't exist.

[Dino D]

10 minutes ago, Isaac Ben said:

In my point of view, this path shouldn't be like you described. Those symptoms (although I occasionally get them myself) are a sign of a struggling ego, An ego trying to get somewhere.
Well guess what? It doesn't exist.

Yes, i know that... but i dont see how it does not exit... i understand the theory but its not my experience... some of my depression an anxiety comes exactyl from what you say, an ego that try to go someware, to achive different thing, desires, oposite wishes (like a everyday example, loosing way vs eating whatever i want) and so on... but i dint manage to transcendent it, get free of it, accept it or whatever im slowly acceptung that it is shity like that and cintunue to feel like 40-60%  OK.

[Isaac Ben]

13 minutes ago, Dino D said:

Yes, i know that... but i dont see how it does not exit... i understand the theory but its not my experience... some of my depression an anxiety comes exactyl from what you say, an ego that try to go someware, to achive different thing, desires, oposite wishes (like a everyday example, loosing way vs eating whatever i want) and so on... but i dint manage to transcendent it, get free of it, accept it or whatever im slowly acceptung that it is shity like that and cintunue to feel like 40-60%  OK.

Knowing that the ego doesn't exist, you should just let go of all control and let things just happen. You don't have to do anything but watch your mind and body do their own thing. Eat whatever food you want but be mindful while doing it. Do whatever the hell you want but just be mindful while doing it. That's what I'm trying to do at least when I realized that you just can't get rid of your ego relying on that same exact ego to do the ridding. let go, and watch things happen .

[Ether]

@Joseph Maynor I never took any drugs and I probably have higher awareness than 90% on this forum.

[Dino D]

4 minutes ago, Ether said:

@Joseph Maynor I never took any drugs and I probably have higher awareness than 90% on this forum.

Or youre just smarter and more mindfull? Having better noticing abilities...

(Not saying that youre arent aware as fuck, just saying)

[Ether]

Just now, Dino D said:

Or youre just smarter and more mindfull? Having better noticing abilities...

(Not saying that youre arent aware as fuck, just saying)

Nah, just 1 month ago I barely could think straight

[student]

I am always happy when I return to myself. Leo seems to me very rational and "concrete". Going from A to B, and from B to C. Wanting it immediately through psychedelics, which is nothing wrong (to experiment with them), but he thought he can fool the absolute by doing nothing by himself, without the "help" of the psychedelics.

I am always happy when I return to the "activity" of what raises my consciousness. I have my obstacles and get sad sometimes, but I always know, intuitively, that that is my personal lesson which inevitable needs to be transcended. We have lessons to learn and that is what matters, because many of them are very harsh and that is what makes yourself another "person". You can not teleport from A to Z. You must make the steps. You can envision yourself being in Z, because you can, and because it is possible to be there, but the road is the one that matters. The map is not the territory, isn't it? The road is hellish and that hell is what transforms you in Z. The road is your life. You can not force anything, and if you force something you will just get frustrated and continue to wonder why isn't anything happening. 

It is not wrong how you are (rational or not etc.) but it is wrong to get again trapped in the trance of the illusion, of superficiality. The obstacles are superficiality, the thoughts, the "knowledge" that you think you have, which in fact you don't, and realize this only when you will finally let go and see what true knowledge comes from. Everything can be superficial or not, meditation, rationality, imagination etc. It is your choice.

[Leo Gura]

@Salvijus Have you ever done 2 weeks of nonstop self-inquiry?

[Space]

@Salvijus It wasn't demotivating for me at all to be honest. It certainly wasn't the most motivating video Leo has ever released but it was real, authentic and just a great example of the reality of the spiritual path. It's rarely goes the way you expect it to, and it's always much harder. I did think he'd go further than 2 weeks, as a 2 week vipassana retreat is quite common, but I haven't done that amount personally so I can't judge.

Leo mentions on more than one occasion that no amount of traditional meditation will get you the same results as the deep psychedelic trips, and for some this might be demotivating. But this doesn't mean you should stop meditating or doing the normal practises. Huge amounts of growth and life changing insight can be had from meditation and yoga. It just won't be as deep as the psychedelics. 

[Leo Gura]

@Space Just to be clear, I believe it's possible to go deeper with meditation/yoga than with psychedelics.

It just requires exceptional talent and enormous amounts of grinding work. We're talking 10,000+ hours of it, done in large consecutive chunks.

Read Om Swami's accounts of how hard he meditates, for example. It's an insane, super-human feat he does. It's just not realistic for most people. This is the kind of stuff only monks have time to do. This is like Olympic level meditation.

The reason I talk about psychedelics is because they offer ordinary people a glimpse of what a 40 year enlightened master or full-time monk experiences.

Imagine if you could take a pill and experience what it is like to play golf at Tiger Wood's level, or to play the piano at Mozart's level, or play chess at Gary Kasparov's level. That would be awesome, and highly useful to normal people.

Well, psychedelics are just that.

For example, I've had insights on 5-MeO that Shinzen Young has yet to have, and he's like 80 years old and has been teaching this stuff for 50 years. I can see that Shinzen is not fully enlightened. This would be totally impossible for me to see without 5-MeO. I've talked to students of his who have been practicing with him for 10-15 years, and they are still not enlightened, or even close.

(BTW, nothing against Shinzen. I think he's a great teacher.)

It's almost impossible to convey how deep the rabbit hole goes.

[Salvijus]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

@Salvijus Have you ever done 2 weeks of nonstop self-inquiry?

Not like you, no, no way I'm not insane lol, Just kidding

Edited June 9, 2018 by Salvijus

[DMM710]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

@Space Just to be clear, I believe it's possible to go deeper with meditation/yoga than with psychedelics.

It just requires exceptional talent and enormous amounts of grinding work. We're talking 10,000+ hours of it, done in large consecutive chunks.

Read Om Swami's accounts of how hard he meditates, for example. It's an insane, super-human feat he does. It's just not realistic for most people. This is the kind of stuff only monks have time to do. This is like Olympic level meditation.

The reason I talk about psychedelics is because they offer ordinary people a glimpse of what a 40 year enlightened master or full-time monk experiences.

Imagine if you could take a pill and experience what it is like to play golf at Tiger Wood's level, or to play the piano at Mozart's level, or play chess at Gary Kasparov's level. That would be awesome, and highly useful to normal people.

Well, psychedelics are just that.

For example, I've had insights on 5-MeO that Shinzen Young has yet to have, and he's like 80 years old and has been teaching this stuff for 50 years. I can see that Shinzen is not fully enlightened. This would be totally impossible for me to see without 5-MeO. I've talked to students of his who have been practicing with him for 10-15 years, and they are still not enlightened, or even close.

(BTW, nothing against Shinzen. I think he's a great teacher.)

It's almost impossible to convey how deep the rabbit hole goes.

But when you don’t have another person’s first person experience to compare it to, how can you know for sure that what you’re feeling would be similar?

Also how can we know for sure that insights we have while tripping are true? They may feel true, but when it’s something as powerful as 5-meo; is it not possible that it might be able to create things that are true, or feel true?

After all, how can we really know what a substance is capable of doing, and what’s it’s not capable of doing? Why would it not be possible?

I’m not saying it’s definitively wrong or anything, I’m just saying that it may be possible that it’s not just a substance that points out truths that were already there. 

Edited June 9, 2018 by DMM710

[Leo Gura]

10 minutes ago, DMM710 said:

But when you don’t have another person’s first person experience to compare it to, how can you know for sure that what you’re feeling would be similar?

Also how can we know for sure that insights we have while tripping are true? They may feel true, but when it’s something as powerful as 5-meo; is it not possible that it might be able to create things that are true, or feel true? After all, how can we really know what a substance is capable of doing, and what’s it’s not capable of doing?

Try it and see. That's the only way you know anything at all.

You cannot know ahead of time how the Absolute is Absolute. But it's Absolute, and you'll know it immediately once you're in it. How is that possible? This cannot be explained to you because you are asleep.

Of course it's possible to misinterpret psychedelic trips. Very possible. The tendency for self-deception is ALWAYS at work in everything you do. Self-deception is even possible after enlightenment. There is no escaping the possibility of self-deception, ever, so long as you have a mind.

The question you should be more concerned about is: "What if my current thinking is self-deception? What if I'm having all these doubts about this path because I'm asleep? What if I'm questioning psychedelics because I'm really just too afraid and lazy to try them?"

[now is forever]

29 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Try it and see. That's the only way you know anything at all.

You cannot know ahead of time how the Absolute is Absolute. But it's Absolute, and you'll know it immediately once you're in it. How is that possible? This cannot be explained to you because you are asleep.

Of course it's possible to misinterpret psychedelic trips. Very possible. The tendency for self-deception is ALWAYS at work in everything you do. Self-deception is even possible after enlightenment. There is no escaping the possibility of self-deception, ever, so long as you have a mind.

The question you should be more concerned about is: "What if my current thinking is self-deception? What if I'm having all these doubts about this path because I'm asleep? What if I'm questioning psychedelics because I'm really just too afraid and lazy to try them?"

ok, what about the other way round? what about questioning them while taking them?

i know that you can get some insights, because i took psychedelics in my youth and had near death experience. but nothingness experience you can have without it. even infinity is something you can experience without them (maybe only by taking them in advance) but at some point isn't it better to stop? a lot of my friends had a really rough time, because they couldn't stop or they got lost on the way. i stopped taking drugs when i turned 18. and still am happy i did. though i never forget what i was able to see.

all i want to say is: the craving mind can be delusional, too.