Could Nonduality Be An Illusion?

[WildeChilde]

The user Egoless has got me questioning things as of late, particularly with this video he posted.  How do we know the non-dual state of awareness reveals to us the true nature of reality when it simply is the consequence of an alteration in brain activity?  The man's explanation starts at 6:00.  

How do we know which perception of reality to trust?  Could the enlightened perception of oneness and identification with the whole of reality simply be an error of judgement?

 

 

[MarkusSweden]

@WildeChilde See for yourself, everything is continuation and interdependent. 

Short answer - No! 

[Faceless]

To stay much closer to what we do know, what causes this sense of seperatness of things. 

What causes division between this and that, i and other??

[Faceless]

15 minutes ago, WildeChilde said:

How do we know which perception of reality to trust?  Could the enlightened perception of oneness and identification with the whole of reality simply be an error of judgement?

It very well can be yes. That’s why we must start with the one who judges. The entity that can make errors, the self/the thinker with its psychological attatchment to maintain permanence/security. 

This is often missed altogether. It’s about learning without accumulation. A capacity to observe without clinging to ones own psychological accumulation from the past that gets extended onto the present, and projected forward into the future.

Edited June 8, 2018 by Faceless

[Nahm]

26 minutes ago, WildeChilde said:

The user Egoless has got me questioning things as of late, particularly with this video he posted.  How do we know the non-dual state of awareness reveals to us the true nature of reality when it simply is the consequence of an alteration in brain activity?  The man's explanation starts at 6:00.  

How do we know which perception of reality to trust?  Could the enlightened perception of oneness and identification with the whole of reality simply be an error of judgement?

It’s good he’s got you questioning! Nonduality isn’t a goal, or a belief, or something to strive towards. It’s literally unbelievable. As in no chance of understanding it or believing it. Who cares what the guy in the video says. Or me.      Self Inquire.

[Enlightenment]

Well, non dual state is created by lowering activity of some brain regions, super AI could by precise mechanical surgery make anyone do, say or feel absolutely anything. Ultimately enlightenment should primarily be seen as a way to lessen our suffering, and live a better life because it's all that matters anyway.

[robdl]

2 hours ago, Faceless said:

It very well can be yes. That’s why we must start with the one who judges. The entity that can make errors, the self/the thinker with its psychological attatchment to maintain permanence/security. 

 

In your view Faceless, would the self-inquiry "Who/what am 'I'?" and/or "To whom does this thought occur?" be one way to "start with the one who judges," and avoid becoming the observer who observes through the lens of psychological accumulation?  Or would such a self-inquiry still be a form of positive movement of the self?   

I always wonder if that form of self-inquiry is compatible with your view of proper observation (observing without the observer).

 

Edited June 8, 2018 by robdl

[Salvijus]

Self-enquiry Meditation is not about nondual expererince.and not about god, not about reaching some goal but to know who you are. There's absolutely no harm in doing introspection into your own nature. In fact, it's the wisest thing one can do.

Vippassana meditation is also not about nonduality. It's about becoming free from cravings and aversions.

I mean these things are very good for everyone no? :). Even for a Christian or Islam or farmer or a millionare or whatever. Believing in something doesn't give you any answers. You still have to look and self-enquire.

And even if nonduality is not real. It shouldn't stop you from asking deep existential question (self-enquiry), or stop you from wanting to be free from your compulsions (vippassana)

But to be fair nonduality can be proven by basic logic and modern scientics are saying everything is one everything is one energy. Einstein famous formula E=mc^2. You know what it means? That everything is one energy just goes from one form to another.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Faceless]

19 minutes ago, robdl said:

In your view Faceless, would the self-inquiry "Who/what am 'I'?" and/or "To whom does this thought occur?" be one way to "start with the one who judges," and avoid becoming the observer who observes through the lens of psychological accumulation?  Or would such a self-inquiry still be a form of positive movement of the self?   

I always wonder if that form of self-inquiry is compatible with your view of proper observation (observing without the observer).

 

What does that form of inquiry go into? 

What does it explore?

[Lorcan]

3 hours ago, WildeChilde said:

The user Egoless has got me questioning things as of late, particularly with this video he posted.  How do we know the non-dual state of awareness reveals to us the true nature of reality when it simply is the consequence of an alteration in brain activity?  The man's explanation starts at 6:00.  

How do we know which perception of reality to trust?  Could the enlightened perception of oneness and identification with the whole of reality simply be an error of judgement?

 

 

Wait. This is the user Egoless? This man here?

[Leo Gura]

@WildeChilde For you, enlightenment is just an idea. So definitely, it can be an illusion from your POV.

There is no one you can trust to tell you the Truth, because you are it.

Truth-seekers don't have the luxury of a tit to suck on. Hence truth-seeking is not a popular hobby.

As the Buddha once said, "The only way you can know if you have an ass, is by bending over and looking at it."

[robdl]

48 minutes ago, Faceless said:

What does that form of inquiry go into? 

What does it explore?

that form of inquiry is a tool intended to turn attention inward ---  instead of accepting/rejecting/identifying with thought content, emphasis is placed on the observer itself of the content.  If the tethers to the thought content are weakened, then the movement of ego/self/thought is weakened.  The movement of thought is deprived of its fuel (identification, choice, etc.).  Even if the subtle perception arises "I am observing thought," this also must be seen as thought content and inquiry must be made into who has observed that thought.

Edited June 8, 2018 by robdl

[Faceless]

43 minutes ago, robdl said:

that form of inquiry is a tool intended to turn attention inward ---  instead of accepting/rejecting/identifying with thought content, emphasis is placed on the observer itself of the content.  If the tethers to the thought content are weakened, then the movement of ego/self/thought is weakened.  The movement of thought is deprived of its fuel (identification, choice, etc.).  Even if the subtle perception arises "I am observing thought," this also must be seen as thought content and inquiry must be made into who has observed that thought.

Is that all it goes into? 

I can see how the complex nature of thought could bring about problems In that. I would have to explore that deeper though. 

I can see how there could be self deception there. 

 

Edited June 8, 2018 by Faceless

[robdl]

22 minutes ago, Faceless said:

Is that all it goes into? 

I can see how the complex nature of thought could bring about problems In that. I would have to explore that deeper though. 

I can see how there could be self deception there. 

 

Definitely.  Self-inquiry can actually amplify the cunning, sneaky nature of thought, as you go into the question "To whom does this thought occur?" and the mind responds with very subtle movements of self.  These subtle movements of self are subsequently observed and their origins are inquired into.

 

 

[Faceless]

4 minutes ago, robdl said:

Definitely.  Self-inquiry can actually amplify the cunning, sneaky nature of thought, as you go into the question "To whom does this thought occur?" and the mind responds with very subtle movements of self.  These subtle movements of self are subsequently observed and their origins are inquired into.

 

 

Indeed. You are sharp my friend?

World is lucky to have a presence such as yours

Edited June 8, 2018 by Faceless

[WildeChilde]

I appreciate y'alls responses on this matter; I think I'm giving this former Zen practitioner turned  Christian too much authority on this topic.  Although, even this psychedelic resource website says we shouldn't take these experiences too seriously: 

 

"Unity and interconnectedness can be described as the experience of one's sense of self becoming temporarily changed to feel as if it is constituted by a wider array of concepts than that which it previously did. For example, while a person may usually feel that they are exclusively their “ego” or a combination of their “ego” and physical body, during this state their sense of identity can change to also include the external environment or an object they are interacting with. This results in intense and inextricable feelings of unity or interconnectedness between oneself and varying arrays of previously "external" systems.

It is worth noting that many people who undergo this experience consistently interpret it as the removal of a deeply embedded illusion, the destruction of which is often described as some sort of profound “awakening” or “enlightenment.” However, it is important to understand that these conclusions and feelings should not necessarily be accepted at face value as inherently true.

Unity and interconnectedness most commonly occurs under the influence of psychedelic and dissociativecompounds such as LSD, DMT, ayahuasca, mescaline, and ketamine. However it can also occur during well-practiced meditation, deep states of contemplation, and intense focus."

https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/Unity_and_interconnectedness

[robdl]

Any experience lends itself to being questioned/doubted/seen as an illusion.  But nonduality isn't an experience, it's BEING.    I'd argue that being can't be doubted in the same manner an experience can.

[Faceless]

Sure. 

It’s very important that one understands the nature of experience. 

If experience is projected from the movement/content of thought, then that would not be an immeasurable experiencing. 

This would be a creation/fabrication of ones own imagination through the movement of ones knowledge/memory. 

Experience implies recognition of something of the past. 

Edited June 8, 2018 by Faceless

[Faceless]

Watch them beliefs. As long as belief is in movement such fabricated experiences are bound to manifest. 

Along with a conglomerate of other illusions and forms of self deception.  

Belief is a disorder. It implies an illusion (the entity) seeking security in an illusion (belief)

A mind that operates in order does not hold any beliefs, seek pleasure, escape fear, and so on. It does move in any such direction. It does not pursue or escape the illusory movement of time. Nor does it move positvely as a psychological entity. 

Edited June 9, 2018 by Faceless

[Faceless]

4 minutes ago, Etagnwo said:

I'm sorry but this is complete nonsense. And you know it

I Don’t understand how you don’t know this already. You give advice to a lot of people yet don’t know this very important fact. 

Its quite interesting to observe your responses indeed