Examples of Zen Devils?

[Maycol]

"Substantiated in the form of video and eye-witness testimonies:

Physical assault in the form of kicking or slapping

Non-consensual administration of additional psychedelics during sessions

Unexpectedly electrically shocking participants into a standing position

Misogynistic bullying in an attempt to coerce participants into accepting additional doses of 5-MeO

Pouring water down the nose or throat of otherwise unconscious participants

Unexpectedly blocking the airways of participants for over 15 seconds.

Unsubstantiated rumors or accusations:

Unsolicited or inappropriate physical contact while under the influence (most reports are of kissing and touching)

Involved in the death of at least three individuals during sessions directed and lead by Octavio. Two elderly gentlemen who died officially of heart complications, and one 26-year-old woman Ana Patricia Arredondo whose body wasn't recovered until six days of search and rescue.

Severe psychological trauma from sessions which result in long-term depression and suicide."

http://psillyrabbits.com/podcastblog-archives-1/2018/5/27/exploring-psychedelics-2018-reviewing-zealotry-and-apologetics-within-the-field-of-psychedelics-2lyt5

 

[Leo Gura]

Well, a shaman isn't exactly Zen to begin with. Shamanism is its own thing.

[blazed]

Leo is the zen devil, he invented it, if you google "zen devil" all that comes up is mostly Leo's stuff.

lol "zen devil" sounds awesome tho, would like to make a comic about it.

[Maycol]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

Well, a shaman isn't exactly Zen to begin with. Shamanism is its own thing.

True. Martin Ball and Octavio Rettig probably the most well known figures in the 5MEO community beside yourself, Leo.

Seems like being awakened to the Absolute Truth includes also human dramas and nuances?

[MiracleMan]

15 minutes ago, Maycol said:

True. Martin Ball and Octavio Rettig probably the most well known figures in the 5MEO community beside yourself, Leo.

Seems like being awakened to the Absolute Truth includes also human dramas and nuances?

The personal lives of some folks we put on pedestals has surprised me at times.  Look into Trungpa's life, not judgementally though, I didn't have a clue about that when I was reading his book, but honestly it didn't change the content for me one bit, it's just really straightforward.  But I agree with @Leo Gura's assertion that enlightenment doesn't ensure you'll be a good boy.

Edited June 1, 2018 by MiracleMan

[Maycol]

@Outer Martin himself posted the sound clip which is included in the original post... it was very intense.

[Leo Gura]

Well... about that Martin clip... you see... no matter how enlightened you are, you can still get angry. In fact, Zen masters are famous for their fits of anger.

Enlightened rage, they call it

Newbies often confuse enlightenment for saintliness, and that just isn't the case. It is possible to be an enlightened prick. Of course, it's also possible to be an unenlightened prick. So how do you tell the difference?

Corruption is common among even highly enlightened yogis and masters in all traditions.

Of course if 5-MeO is being administered by these people in a forced or dangerous way, that is not good. They could be doing that whether they are enlightened or not. Of course I have no idea if any of these rumors are true. From my limited interactions with Martin, he seems legit and he has a good heart. Of course I have no idea how he behaves behind closed doors.

[Leo Gura]

You also need to take into account that Octavio has done like 10,000 of these psychedelic ceremonies. So you have to reasonably ask yourself, if 1 out of 5,000 sessions going bad is really that bad of a ratio. With psychedelics as powerful as 5-MeO, I would expect 1 out of 1,000 people to have serious negative side effects. So it's complicated.

1/1,000 surgeries certainly goes really bad.

Smoking 5-MeO for someone who isn't ready for it, is gonna be in for a wild ride. Hell, I don't even dare to smoke it.

[Leo Gura]

In personal correspondences with Martin I have asked him about whether he thinks smoking 5-MeO can cause any kind of energetic or psychological damage. And he just flatly says No.

I disagree about that. I think 5-MeO, especially smoked in large doses, if one is unprepared, can cause energetic and psychological damage. So I would be very cautious. Rectal administration is much safer, especially for newbies.

[blazed]

20 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Well... about that Martin clip... you see... no matter how enlightened you are, you can still get angry. In fact, Zen masters are famous for their fits of anger.

Enlightened rage, they call it

Newbies often confuse enlightenment for saintliness, and that just isn't the case. It is possible to be an enlightened prick. Of course, it's also possible to be an unenlightened prick. So how do you tell the difference?

If its intentional anger like how a parent shouts at a child to strike fear and get them to do something quickly then I'd call that enligthened rage.

If it's other people causing you to get angry and lose self control you ain't enligthened, enligthened must be some weak ass sauce if other people can intend to troll you and make you angry and you can't even sustain high consciousness / self control. Inner game is 100% you, outer game not so much.

For example when jesus got angry and kicked people out of the church for gambling I'm pretty sure that was very intentional anger. Asking people nicely probably wasn't going to work.

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, blazed said:

If its intentional anger like how a parent shouts at a child to strike fear and get them to do something quickly then I'd call that enligthened rage.

If it's other people causing you to get angry and lose self control you ain't enligthened, enligthened must be some weak ass sauce if other people can intend to troll you and make you angry and you can't even sustain high consciousness / self control. Inner game is 100% you, outer game not so much.

That's generally correct. Except, enlightened masters are also humans, and can also get triggered and get angered in an unconscious way. Just because you're enlightened does not mean you're in control of your emotions 24/7. Enlightened masters also get horny. So watch out

If you poke someone with a sharp stick long enough -- even Sadhguru -- he will probably get angry and beat you with it.

[blazed]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That's generally correct. Except, enlightenment masters can also get triggers and get angered in an unconscious way. Just because you're enlightened does not mean you're in control of your emotions 24/7.

"There are, strictly speaking, no enlightened people, there is only enlightened activity."

If they become unconscious that means at that time moment they were not enlightened.

Sadhguru would probably beat you with it yes, but he'd probably be in joy whilst he does it

 

Edited June 1, 2018 by blazed

[Leo Gura]

19 minutes ago, blazed said:

Sadhguru would probably beat you with it yes, but he'd probably be in joy whilst he does it

True, but think of the image from a PR perspective:

CNN Breaking News: "Enlightened master beats follower with sharp stick and enjoys it. What a monster!"

The whole point is, the enlightened master doesn't have a problem with his anger. It's the outside world that judges him. And unfortunately for him, the outside world ain't as enlightened as he is.

Sadhguru has been accused of murder and holding followers hostage in his cult. I've been accused of being a pedophile. So yeah... if you're gonna be enlightened, you need to develop a stomach for being misunderstood.

[blazed]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

True, but think of the image from a PR perspective:

CNN Breaking News: "Enlightened master beats follower with sharp stick and enjoys it. What a monster!"

Hmmm, intentional clickbait and marketing, is that enlightened activity or not? lol

[DnoReally]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I've been accused of being a pedophile.

I bet because of one of your ridiculous analogies like raping peoples grandmas or drowning your own baby.

Edited June 2, 2018 by DnoReally

[Leo Gura]

@DnoReally Actually, just for my logo. Shows you just how paranoid and judgmental the human mind can be.

[Truth Addict]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

True, but think of the image from a PR perspective:

CNN Breaking News: "Enlightened master beats follower with sharp stick and enjoys it. What a monster!"

The whole point is, the enlightened master doesn't have a problem with his anger. It's the outside world that judges him. And unfortunately for him, the outside world ain't as enlightened as he is.

Sadhguru has been accused of murder and holding followers hostage in his cult. I've been accused of being a pedophile. So yeah... if you're gonna be enlightened, you need to develop a stomach for being misunderstood.

 

Leo, I told my mother about you, she said you worship the devil and also drink human blood. Seriously, she literally said that.

And now I'm dumped in my room, she doesn't talk to me anymore.

[pluto]

Leo is Aleister Crowley in disguise Muahahahah!

 

[Leo Gura]

15 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

she said you worship the devil and also drink human blood.

Only on the weekend

[Key Elements]

@Leo Gura These sentences...

"I feel pain."

"I feel anger."

are different from these sentences...

"I am the pain."

"I am the anger."

Somewhere in the middle of this clip, when a monk was protesting against the Vietnam War, he lit himself with fire and wasn't even crying; it is an example of 'I am the pain.'"

An example of "I am the anger," could be a high ranking Shaolin monk fighting with a major enemy in self defense, not bothering if he's going to die. Truly enlightened masters know when to exhibit, "I am the (anger/pain)." They don't do it whenever they want with whoever. They've mastered when to do it.

Leo, sometimes you got to explain it in a way to reduce negative publicity and assumptions from others.